香港獨立媒體 - Comments for "平等的不同尺度（一）"

你的馬桶理論

我沒想過也沒需要去補救我的理論，只是不明你的理論，相反你的理論和例子卻愈講愈多，愈扯愈遠，你還是答答大家倒哥士的落馬桶，成功通返個廁所是不是一定要感謝神吧！

那位人兄已經愈扯愈遠了

先是富豪給大學捐款，然後是教會籌款，再然後是馬會不歡迎非馬迷，現在又來「外國人為何不可以請會英文的清潔工」，人兄，你山頭未免太多，但全都是不可靠不堅固的吧？

請問，我倒哥士的落馬桶，成功通返個廁所是不是一定要感謝神？你是不是基於這些「感恩」之心去定義員工是否「和你同心」？還是洗廁所之前務必要與神溝通？耶穌雖然是老外，但不要以為用「英文」就能混淆過去吧！

歡迎(應屆)畢業生......

首先要說,賽馬會在電視,報章廣告,常說歡迎馬迷入場,不過找不到網上紀錄,才用投票呼籲代替,並以澳門馬會廣告補足.兩者都是廣告,關乎馬會/求職者生計,又有什麼分別?原來還要加上policy...

請往Yahoo或Google打上「歡迎(應屆)畢業生」,查看結果.

聘Marketing Trainee(歡迎應屆中五中七及大專畢業生)
薪酬：$7000
工作時間：每週工作5天半,每天工作8小時,
地點:九龍
資歷：積極主動、有責任心、獨立工作能力及良好溝通技巧
求職者電郵履歷至k.t.y.gentry@gmail.com登記

http://www.failforum.net/forum/viewthread.php?tid=840531

你不用再補救理論了.

先說"Whether the American system should be upheld as the standard is another debate that I don't want to start."接著沒有證據又說"However, in reality there are always people who can get around the law, or even the courts are politicized, resulting in an interpretation of the law based on special interests."無的放矢,我應該理不理會你的「暗示」?我未必同意美國政策,也不保他們原來都在「走法律罅」.我只是因應別人留言道出事實.

本來你從未就歡迎=暗示提出任何理據,覺得就算?我不理了,以為提出反例可以一了百了,可是糾纏至此.酒樓,餐廳工作往往要處理不同肉類,本質上已經令虔誠佛教/回教/印度教徒放棄,這是比歡迎更明確的「暗示」.但這不算排他,更不算歧視.若果不由分說請了他,卻迫他做違反教義的事倒算.

反歧視法往往都是政治正確,我認同宗教,種族,性別,年齡等歧視須要監督,但當中有不同尺度不同衡量,如投考警察至少高1.63米,重50公斤,真的擺明排斥矮,輕過此標準的人,沒有人肯定太輕,太矮不足以擔任警察,身材五短,不可以身手敏捷?這算不算歧視?何況宗教團體不過歡迎相同志向的人?我在這裡常為政治正確辯護,但若連這樣也不許,我認為這是過分的政治正確.

「誠摯期望蘭陽子弟回家鄉服務，優先考慮。」

http://www.web66.com.tw/web/Blog?MID=35243

現代平等主義是協助不同的人在平等的基礎上競爭,平等機會/待遇是協助起步點較低的人,而非磨平每一個人特質,機會均等.甚至會出現逆向,合理歧視,如在其他地方已提及西方國家優待少數族裔,黑人入學機會較大,秉承反歧視法精神.

Policy vs non policy

If the govt, an organization, or a company specifies that admission to a place or application for a job is restricted (or prioritized) based on religious/racial background, gender, age, etc., it's a policy and should be under scrutiny. Of course, sometimes those backgrounds are RELEVANT to the job and shouldn't be considered discriminatory. For example, commonsense says it's legitimate for a movie maker to look for a teenage boy to play Harry Potter, or a female sales clerk to work in the women's changing room of a department store. These requirements are qualifications, not irrelevant backgrounds.

An advertisement appealing to horse racing enthusiasts to vote online, to fans of a pop star to go to a concert, to parents to take their kids to Disneyland, and so on, is NOT a policy (unless the organization requires proof that you are an enthusiast, a fan, or a parent before you can participate). One should think about the intent behind the anti-discriminatory law. What's the spirit of the law? It's to ensure that opportunities for earning a living and enjoying life are as fair as possible, even though in an imperfect world not everything is fair. I don't think people would get distressed when exposed to these "exclusionary" ads, whereas they do if they see phrases such as "Christians are welcome," "women under 30 are welcome," or "people with no kids are welcome," and so on, when they try to look for a job.

Whether the American system should be upheld as the standard is another debate that I don't want to start. All I want to say is the American concept of separation of religion and state, and the equal opportunity laws are commendable. However, in reality there are always people who can get around the law, or even the courts are politicized, resulting in an interpretation of the law based on special interests. It would be better to focus on what is fair, instead of looking to the US and saying "even in the US, you have this or that."

回答

我係外國人,點解我唔可以想搵個識英文既清潔工?靠害嗎?問題本身就有毛病,什麼「做任清潔都要係教徒」?哪份工作具備基礎條件,就是應得,必然?為什麼不問點解做任清潔要搭車一粒鐘?難道外國人/教會強迫你去做?英文和信仰未必是清潔的必要條件,但可以是不同背景/僱主考慮因素.我想找和我同心的員工就是施捨?

道德上我很難代替教徒代言,但我不覺得有虧道德,有違教義.

簡單一個問題

點解我想做任清潔都要係教徒？施捨嗎？所以我才說這是法理容許，但為情理所不容，設限的大愛也不是愛。

我無意和任何人玩

也無意阻礙任何人抽水攞彩,但這麼多人回覆,一併回應.

我已經說了,「或許你們覺得它去宗教化,皮裡陽秋,誤導大眾,但那是另一問題」,或請市民查證團體背景,善款用途;或要求賣旗機構像招募月捐詳列備細,無妨.

先說我離題,偃旗息鼓,再說我偷換概念,質疑我詭辯,你繼續好了.

「其實大家可以參加美國方面的法律。突破廣告寫明不請非教徒﹐若果是在美國﹐肯定早已給人告到執笠了。」

Christian Business Job

Title : Microsoft Network Engineer
Location : Richmond, VA US
Contact : Computer Resource Team, Ariel Bussard
Phone : (804) 273-1822 Email : abussard@crtinc.com
Description : Computer Resource Team is looking for a Microsoft Network Engineer for a 6 month contract to hire position in Richmond Virginia. Our client is a large faith based organization aimed at spreading the gospel of Jesus Christ. The successful candidate will have 5+ years of experience in networking, server operations, and working within a datacenter. Must have skills:Networking: Routing, Switching, Virtualization & Load Balancing, VPN, Encryption, Policy & Security, Performance, Ba
Posted : 11/14/08 10:51
Posting ID : 1315

Title : Computer technician
Location : Jacksonville, FL US
Contact : Fast-teks On-site Computer Services, Morgan Benge
Phone : 9044606441 Email : mbenge@fastteks.com
Description : This opportunity will start out small, part-time, 5-15 hours a week and will go from there. We can discuss pay.(18-25) I need techs whom the Lord has blessed with the ability to obtain A+ & Net+ certifications for residential work with 2+ years experience preferred and techs whom the Lord has blessed with the ability to obtain MCSE certifications for business/residential work with 4+ years experience preferred.

http://www.christianet.com/christianjobs/

We are looking for a clinician with many of the following characteristics: Licensed, experience working with children and adolescents, clinical work with adults and couples, a minimum of 5 years of clinical experience. If a psychologist, experience and desire to provide psychological testing for ADHD, ADD adults and children and general psychological testing. Ability to provide counseling from a Christian perspective is desired.

We are in need of a person in the next month or so who will be able to hire and fill therapist clients quickly. We desire someone who would like to put down roots with a Christian group practice and is a team player.

http://www.christiancareercenter.com/jobs/index.php?post_id=198&action=s...

America World Adoption Association, an evangelical Christian international adoption agency, is seeking a part-time Director of Social Services to work in Pennsylvania - preferably the Philadelphia area.

Responsibilities include conducting/supervising home studies and post placements; obtaining and maintaining the agency’s license in accordance with state regulations; conducting home study orientation meetings and training for families; conducting training for home study coordinators; assisting public relations managers with adoption fellowship groups and seminars as needed; meeting with families in the office or at the family’s home during or after business hours; setting up a network of as-needed social workers to conduct home studies and post placements with families.

The qualified candidate is a committed believer in Jesus Christ as revealed in the Bible, has dynamic skills to communicate with prospective families the blessing of adoption, is thorough and complete in dealing with all issues and problems, is a self-starter and able to follow through on tasks, has excellent verbal/written communication skills, and has basic computer skills (MS Word, Excel, Outlook). MSW preferred with at least two years’ experience in adoption social work or master’s degree in a related field combined with five years’ experience in adoption social work, administration or a related position.

http://www.christiancareercenter.com/jobs/index.php?post_id=191&action=s...

hevangel又再一任己意信口雌黃.美國網上有很多為教徒而設求職網站,除了牧師等神職人員,還有很多不同種類工作擺明找基督徒,幾時被人告到執笠?抑或美國一直縱容這種「歧視」?

首先我已經商榷「歡迎」是否「寫明」,所有招聘廣告都會寫明對僱員要求,冀望找到切合期望的人.若美國宗教團體歡迎/先考慮聘請相同信仰員工確屬歧視,請交代案例,最好概述法官判詞.

不論私立公立,辦學團體都會得到不同程度公共資源.如美國教育券本有抵觸政教分離法之嫌,後來法院裁定教育券可應用於教會學校.香港則須通過教育署審核,認可其辦學理念.一般由政府撥地,辦學團體籌款興建.和政府合資,不等於沒有自主權.我已經說過「不公不等於歧視」,涉及公共資源,當示以公,不宜有私,但亦不等於不能有優先考慮,如移民申請會優先考慮所需,不清楚根據,或屬合理歧視,但未必認同.或許將來香港有民主後,會反對政府繼續和宗教團體合作,但未見市民對此非常不滿.

美国公布明年1月移民排期表:

第四优先类

宗教工作人员、前美国政府工作人员等特殊移民

http://www.earthedu.com/StudyAbroad/News/200801/20080102090258.shtml

fc:歡迎教徒暗示不歡迎非教徒

me:歡迎馬迷入場>fc理論>暗示不歡迎不賭馬的人

fc:請人工作,有關生計才算

公園:歡迎白人入場>fc理論>暗示不歡迎其他種族>不涉生計>不屬歧視.

繼續加條件好了.

請不要再一而再再而三的抵賴了

如果你是要請自己仔女又怎樣？對，我們奈何不了。

我舉出的問題，重點在於一紙招聘啟事字眼有問題，擺出來的意識形態更有問題，在社會都講「不論年齡，唯才是用」的現代社會，我們實在要反思「不論才能，唯徒是用」這種反智的選人模式是否與時並進，因為如閣下所說的一套要是理所當然，在招聘廣告也不用再羅列資歷要求，只要一句「必須是基督徒」便成。

閣下不是左右而言他地混淆視聽（同鄉會請人 / 富豪捐款給大學某學院算不算「歧視」），就是一直引用最差的例子（父母請兒子 / 救世軍都係咁）去證明「我係要請自己友丫，吹咩？」，的確，閣下如斯要求別人「硬食」自己那套的表現，才是最沒意思，難道，我沒權「拒絕接收」你這種檔次的所謂「意見」？

我重覆，這是因為你反覆所舉出的理由無凌兩可，最少我不認同請個基層員工都要過宗教這個沒必要的關卡，你長篇大論一番也難以服眾。

以下是針對閣下離題討論的回覆︰

你為何捐款給佛教團體，這是你個人的問題，你若然清楚其募捐目的，而你又覺得捐款是沒問題的話，你大可繼續，但「宗教團體籌得善款用於宗教上」絕非你口說的天經地義，任何機構辦得賣旗我相信貼旗之前務必要讓善心的市民知道錢會用到哪裡去，不言明混淆過去就是賣旗的團體有問題，明光社賣旗我們固然不會幫襯。但是否代表買旗的市民是認同：支持明光社的所為？

我們當然不會支持明光社挪用公眾的善款，去讓她們買豪華辦公室、辦調查扮研究、不時在明報買個跨版廣告去登聯署聲明「表達關注社會歪風」！

事實上你那句「不認同就不要捐錢好了」確實是個很好的捐款態度，所以我高興見到現在很多市民都開始意識到捐錢不能亂捐，所以你不能一廂情願認為募捐得來的錢可以理所當然地用在宗教動作方面，但請在每個賣旗日去觀察，市民大眾對賣旗捐款向來都來者不拒，不會太計較哪是甚麼團體，甚至捐了錢對哪個機構賣旗也不知就裡，這是出於市民好心，也可能是通勤時間趕上班「與其避，不如捐」的條件反射，所以請教會團體和閣下不要很天真又很傻地以為在賣旗等日子撈到「油水」就代表有很多人在支持自己。

最後，希望閣下不要再愈講愈遠離題萬丈，謝謝！

Employment ads are different

The link, http://www.hkjc.com/Chinese/news/news_2006022612491.htm, is about calling for people interested in horse racing to vote online, which is just for fun. It shouldn't be compared to an employment ad, which affects people's livelihood. That Jockey Club headline is similar to advertising tag lines such as, "Hey come on, music lovers! Here's a chance for you to win a concert ticket!" Saying that such an ad discriminates against non-music lovers is crazy.

If HKJC is hiring and its recruitment ad says "歡迎馬迷 apply," then yes, it should be considered unfair and discriminatory.

宗教歧視

香港的平等機會法沒有包括宗教歧視是一大敗筆。其實大家可以參加美國方面的法律。突破廣告寫明不請非教徒﹐若果是在美國﹐肯定早已給人告到執笠了。請唔請一個人可以有很多主觀因素﹐但若果寫到明就肯定犯歧視法。至於教會學校只請教徒教師沒有問題﹐如果那是私人學校的話。香港津貼中學用政府錢辨學﹐根據政教分離的原因﹐教會學校只請教徒﹐就有用公家錢傳教之嫌。

我會接力（第二或第三篇）

我覺得呢個道理要慢慢講，急唔黎，因為咁會好大影響佢對平機的睇法。大家只係意見不同，no big deal。

有冇巴打接力呢？我唔想同呢條友玩喇~

「教會以其名義募捐,其理念已為捐款者所知」你真的這樣認為？有幾多人會在賣旗日認真了解那是甚麼團體？「其理念已為捐款者所知」，如果不知，又怎樣？

對於朝雲君要用到偷換概念去讓教會拒非教徒於門外「合理化」，本人就覺得有點啼笑皆非，不知道大家覺得「馬會暗示不歡迎不賭馬」這些算不算是鬼辯呢？

歡迎馬迷......

http://www.hkjc.com/Chinese/news/news_2006022612491.htm

http://www.macaodaily.com/html/2008-07/24/content_200989.htm

原來馬會暗示不歡迎不賭馬,或不迷賭馬的人,我不覺得馬會這麼有良心......

我本就覺得歡迎有避嫌之意,故說「假定」,而且我認為優先考慮比歡迎更嚴重,後者只是心態,前者乃公開先後準則.

我強調教會以其名義募捐,其理念已為捐款者所知,所以認為它們運用善款(包括招聘)歡迎/優先考慮理念相同的人可以接受,明白嗎?

長篇大論的所謂理據

看來自說自話的，是閣下吧？

不知道你會不會英文，樓上fc兄已經說出了重點，道出了優先和歡迎的背後意義，你說我迴避你的理據？抱歉我不認為你那些叫做理據，但你還是不能為教會請個清潔都來一句「歡迎有事奉心志的基督徒」的無理要求去開脫。

本人指出閣下的離題，在於明明在說招聘問題，你就拿「教會募捐做善事」來愈說愈遠，但無論如何，出發點有問題的決策都不會得到大眾認同。

失望

『閣下不是左右而言他地混淆視聽（同鄉會請人 / 富豪捐款給大學某學院算不算「歧視」），就是一直引用最差的例子（父母請兒子 / 救世軍都係咁）去證明「我係要請自己友丫，吹咩？」，的確，閣下如斯要求別人「硬食」自己那套的表現，才是最沒意思，難道，我沒權「拒絕接收」你這種檔次的所謂「意見」？』

你寫了一大堆字,說我離題,但你根本說不出我離題的地方.首先例子「差」只是你感覺,即使「差」亦不代表離題.

勞工處網頁招聘廣告:

名稱：跟車行業：其他社區及社會服務業
工作時間：上午8時至下午7時,或下午7時至上午6時,每週工作6天,輪班, 每天工作 11 小時
薪酬：每月$7,000 地區：觀塘
資歷：小六程度; 刻苦,勤奮,有責任心,需體力勞動，不怕污糟與臭味,住觀塘區優先考慮
職責：協助司機拉喉清理隔油池及化糞池
求職者可致電37499301與曾小姐聯絡。
RTE -- 僱主有意聘請合乎中年就業計劃資格的求職人士。

名稱：校工行業：教育服務業
工作時間：下午6時至下午8時,每週工作5天
薪酬：每小時$40.00 地區：小西灣
資歷：小六程度; 有相關工作經驗優先考慮,誠實有禮,盡責刻苦
職責：清潔課室
求職者請直接致電25764852與梁小姐聯絡。

招聘廣告會對僱員有很多要求,除了資歷,往往涉及很多價值觀,常見如刻苦,有禮等.究竟怎樣才算勤奮,盡責?沒有標準,由僱主決定,你或許自覺勤力,但僱主不認同,拒絕聘用,難道僱主「歧視」你?只不過這些價值觀較受公認而已.信仰可以是僱主希望之「才」.

我援引不同例子,反映出不論僱主用心是好是壞,憑其良心抑或居心請人,或是或非,都不至於構成歧視.若你開公司請人,面試時你「頂唔順」一個明光社員心態,難道你不可以為此拒絕他?不排除你大公無私,但拒絕並非不可接受,尤其是機構有思想背景,更具合理基礎.

突破開宗明義是「一個以基督信仰為基礎的青少年文化、教育機構」,當司機,花王,廚師,清潔不一定要信教,如同當馬英九司機不一定要入國民黨,但馬英九不可以希望由國民黨員為他工作?不可以避免一個深綠當上司機一邊開車一邊煩擾他?我們覺得沒所謂只是我們想當然,機構可以因其信念希望所有成員都是一份子,如戒律森嚴的佛寺視腥葷不潔,要求所有在寺職工都要吃齋.

「宗教團體籌得善款用於宗教上」和「必要讓善心的市民知道錢會用到哪裡去」根本沒有抵觸,你認為不天經地義是你個人問題.你和市民都可以考核,但事實恐怕會令你失望,至於你會怎樣做請便.

我說你拒絕接收我的意見,不過是婉委之詞,你可以繼續迴避我的理據,繼續自說自話下去.