香港獨立媒體 - Comments for "給他們一個中文課程，給他們一個出路 (二)"

^ @_@

of course i know not all cacasian speak only english (and dude i have been to ESL class) and actually South Asian are also consider as Cacasian too to be exact, and their lauguage is consider as ... wutever u completely miss my point.

Language learning

// (i am ticked off by that we only ask south asian to speak cantonese to they can fit in with us while many around us trying to learn english just to be "international" while the white people are like sitting there, segregate themseleves and make us to go their way. wtf.) //

Actually, your comments on Caucasian is not true. You wrongly assume all Caucasian speak only English. Most Caucasian in European countries know a few foreign languages, including English, other than their mother tongue.

In Canada, as well as UK (I think), students are required to learn a second language in school. Only the arrogant Americans refuse to learn other languages. In fact, the above comment is not totally true. Being an immigrant country, most 2nd generation American knows the language of their parents. Learning a second or third language is quite common in American middle class nowadays, only the lower class or the Southerners in the Bible belt speaks only English.

how about this???

from now on, any people who is not fluent in chinese or dont have chinese as first language, REGARDLESS OF SKIN COLOUR, are going to learn some basic Chinese, so that they can handle their daily life easier. OKAY??
(i am ticked off by that we only ask south asian to speak cantonese to they can fit in with us while many around us trying to learn english just to be "international" while the white people are like sitting there, segregate themseleves and make us to go their way. wtf.)

To some of the double standard people here:

Do you realise how you are applying double standards here? Hong Kong is no longer a British colony and Hong Kong is a Cantonese-speaking city.

Helping Ethnic minorities who don’t speak Cantonese to learn the language DOES NOT have anything to do with any form of racial discrimination. And it is certainly not racist! I CANNOT see how that is racist! And perhaps it is you who are racist to think it’s pointless to learn Chinese to communicate with the majority of the HK population. It is just logical to expect people who’ve made Hong Kong their home and want to be accepted by society to speak Cantonese to communicate.

If you didn’t speak English and you were immigrating to an English speaking country, wouldn’t you learn English? Would you expect to be accepted with no knowledge of the English language? And would you expect that you could go on to higher education and find a decent job if you couldn’t even communicate? Would you refuse to learn to speak English and argue that it’s your right to choose NOT to speak English because you’re not a native English speaker?

I’m simply trying to point out the double standard aspect in your argument which to me sounds so ridiculously unfair and colonialist.

I’ve met people who have lived in the U.K for 30 odd years and still struggle to construct a simple sentence in English. I think it’s a disgrace when people don’t even bother learning the host population’s language. It’s disrespectful to think learning Chinese is unnecessary because of some superiority complex that was forced upon us (East Asians, South Asians etc) by Western colonialists.

If I moved to India or indeed to any other countries I would NOT expect people to speak to me in English just because English is widely spoken by people from many countries. I would do my best to learn to speak their languages so that I could communicate with people, integrate into the society and not be left out and still be complaining about people not taking me seriously.

So if your answer to my question above is that you would insist upon speaking NO English if you lived in an English speaking country, then you have a point.

But if you think that you would speak English if you lived in an English speaking country, for example, the U.K. even though you aren’t a white native British person, then you are simply a hypocrite!

If you live in the U.K and don’t speak English, you would not be able to get a place at university or find a job. So what is the difference between that and the Hong Kong government encouraging our ethnic minorities to learn Chinese? You cannot expect people to accept you if you don’t even make an effort to learn their language to communicate in order to integrate into the society. Just think how you would feel if it was happening the other way round.

I am aware of the racism against non-Chinese from some ignorant Hong Kong Chinese but I don’t think it’s the majority and I am proud to say I’m not one of them. I feel ashamed that there is such unfairness in a modern, progressive place like HK.

I have witnessed discrimination against certain ethnic minority groups in Hong Kong and I have relatives who’ve made ignorant remarks about Non-Chinese people and I often confront them. I get very angry when I hear these comments because it is simply unacceptable to judge people by their colours, ethnicity, or social backgrounds. This ignorance’s mainly due to the lack of social education and understanding of our history and culture. Because many Indians have been in Hong Kong for generations, they have made contributions to our society, and many of them do speak the language, yet sometimes you can still find Chinese who would compliment on how good a Hong Kong Indian’s Cantonese is. I feel embarrassed when I witness that. Of course they speak it cos they’re from Hong Kong.

Yet in this day and age, it is rather racist, brainwashed and ignorant to think it is acceptable to speak only English and no Chinese to announce and signify your “upper-classness”. You are just incredibly prejudiced. Do you seriously think that we would’ve looked down on the importance of our Asian languages if we’d never been influenced by Western imperialist and colonialist powers who distorted our values by force?

Ads - Suggest you actually read the draft of the Race Bill

Please read the drafted bill before you respond, and make further accusation that is untrue.

Language discrimination is an important issue, and it is indirect discrimination.

We are talking about services. Like an Ethnic minority go and see the doctor, and the doctor refused to speak in English and speak only in Cantonese, knowing full way the "patient" didn't really understand, is a form of indirect discrimination. But not so, if the Race bill is passed.

That is a major problem.

No one said it is not important to have Chinese as a Second Language class. The EMB would have told you that they have hired an expert that would help developed a Chinese as a Second Language curriculum. But it has been over 2 years and we still didn't see any "result" from this expert.

Do talk like you care about the Race Bill, and not just as a fan of Fermi.

See link below for Race Bill in English, Chinese:

http://www.hab.gov.hk/en/policy_responsibilities/the_rights_of_the_indiv...

There is an introduction in English, Chinese, Urdu, Nepali, Bahasa Indonesia, Thai.

And you still have answer my question: Were you there?

To the evil buddy

Quote :(Chinese as second language) courses for children, that is just a minor part of it.Quote)
Buddy What you are saying it’s a minor part,EMB had added a expamtion that if a school etc dont provide any support to E.M its not a form of discrimination. and that is the problem in which way its minor part, go out and see, can E.M use English to find a job, it’s the major problem from Indian to Pakistan to Nepalese all are saying this, and you are saying it’s a minor problem. Chinese is a hard language to learn, but doesn’t mean don’t have to learn E.M children can never be the same level as local Chinese is, if there is no support they will be for ever the same. That is not a minor part. It’s a major issue. For your point of view it’s minor only if you are E.M you won’t feel like that. If Chinese can be set up to second language for E.M it will be far better then teaching them in English. EMB do have courses in Chinese for E, M but these courses are useless these courses should be in same in every school not different.

Now part of the problem in the exemption only few points have to be corrected, but for language, in the language ordinance written clearly, English can be use if there is a need. But it was vise versa, before 1997 so if Fermi used Chinese to tell Chinese there is no problem, should she also use SOHILI if there is no need. So you mean is she speak Chinese and it’s a form of indirect discrimination then I want to know she indirectly discriminated to who ?
Want to know you join, that mean you agree with her or not. I am sure you agree with Fermi that why you join right. If you don’t agree totally why you join .

Both of your view don’t reflect E.M problem and agreement its all your own useless fabrications and thought. All the E.M leaders agreed with Fermi that the point they agree with her. That already enough, your view can be agreeable if there is E.M leaders supports not the local teachers and some parents only

To ads : Were you there?

I don't know if you were there or not, but I am, so I do know what I'm talking about.

I assumed that ads is a fan of Fermi. But the problem of the race bill is not that the EMB didn't provide CSL (Chinese as second language) courses for children, that is just a minor part of it.

The key point of the issue is that the government is excusing linguistic discrimination as indirect discrimination. If a service provider refuse to use English (like Fermi did that day), it is not indirect discrimination. To me, that is ridiculous.

Second problem is exemptions for racail discrimination. Too much exemption would not only make the race bill ineffective, but instead of protecting, it is ligitimized discrimination.

Before you turned it into a personal fight, I would just want to clarify that even if I dislike this insensitive Fermi, I would help Unions and would continue to do so, despite of Fermi. United front is necessary.

To Frostig and XOX

Some times small sentence can make people understand. Clever people. read it. dont do what you has done to the bill. you didnt read the full bill so please read my full post. thanks in advance

First . Frostig I CHNAGE my English to other form, which simply you can understand and the friend XOX, ok the reality is if you think that my English is not good, then please start a protest here or where ever you want. When some one cant reply the question which I had asked, these are the excuses often seen from the people who don’t have a word to respond, I hope you understand, I want know are you French? I see please don’t make us laugh,jipsy it’s just a discussion, so I don’t think that I have to write a proposal to you, to let you understand, first answer my questions to defend yourself and you little organization in where you are not clear enough of your role.

Secondly Mr. XoX it also show that you not far clever then you little friend frostig.

Quote By XoX(The only complaint I have is for the stupid Fermi who took the mic for more than half an hour speaking in Cantonese when most of the protestors obviously are not Chinese.) Quote
Firstly you are not using a respected way to raise you opinion,
Of you feel like that why you don’t go and tell her, no need to back bit her. ‘
She didn’t give the long speech in Chinese; you know why she was using Chinese. Think twice why before point any body when there are 3 fingers on your self.

She used Chinese because many of the Chinese don’t know what exactly is written in the bill just like both of you Mr.XoX and I know Mrs. Frostig, I’m sure both of you are still sleeping
Further more. Mr. XoX you are mentioning (HER GOD) did you know which Lord Muslim believe and which lord do christens believe, its same Lord my friend,the only one god. so you point is meaningless, if any body is praying his/her god in front of others it doesn’t mean what you had mention, (MISLEADING) I’m quite sure, also I think you forgot to see that Muslims also pray to their lord so does that also misleaded you and Fermi, and for your last ridiculous Fabrication, Your Quote(Don't get me wrong. Union is doing something good, and there were Cantonese speaking Ethnic Minorities there who could do a much better job than Fermi. She just like to be in the spot like and take advantage of the situation. ) Quote

That she want the spot, my friend. Can you please give me the names of the the E.M who you think is better and they are feeling they are not given the chances by Fermi, if you have soo many problems why don’t you and you little friend forstig organize one march like which Fermi organize to show that you and your organization is better and have more guts then Fermi and can also call all the E.M leaders then I will appreciate you a lot I also participated and my friends also, Non of the E.M have any objection on what Fermi is doing or had done on that day you had mention Muslims was there also, so didn’t they feel like you I m sure they didn’t.
I am sure why frostig is writing like this, because you can never be like her.
And I also know who you are, my friend before I tell you organization name here that will make embarrass, that how bad you are. I had attended your meetings also.

So you know that (Big never fly’s) had you hear that idiom.

I hope you can understand my English. One more opinion for you I hope you can have a open debate with Fermi on the battle field. You and your little friends

Protest against linguistic discrimination exemption

I do protest against the drafted race bill.

It is just so full of holes that make soem of the most common discriminatory behavior legal.

And I did join the march last Sunday. It has a good turn out.

The only complaint I have is for the stupid Fermi who took the mic for more than half an hour speaking in Cantonese when most of the protestors obviously are not Chinese.

One of the stupid thing Fermi did, which show how insenstive she is about racial/cultural diversity is to say thank to her god when many protestors are wearing headscarf indicating they are Muslims. Her insensitivity continued with her leading a prayer to her god. She just like to take credit for thing she didn't even understand.

Don't get me wrong. Union is doing something good, and there were Cantonese speaking Ethnic Minorities there who could do a much better job than Fermi. She just like to be in the spot like and take advantage of the situation.

Sorry, ads!

I have to say that your above comment was very tiring for people to read through and a bit difficult to understand because of the language. I mean, the mistakes have already been too serious that some of your sentences have become confusing and sometimes even misleading......

I am not to complain about your English standard by the way, but can you use simpler, shorter sentences with less mistakes or to type in Chinese (or it could be French for me, if you prefer) if your Chinese (or French, for instance)is better? I mean, as it is just too difficult to read through your comment and to easily understand it well, it is hard to discuss with you.

Than you for your understanding! :-)

To; people think S.A south be though in their mother language

First of all. i will like to point out to those person who are here aruging, and disrespactiing other views, expacialy, who says fermi is racist. this only show that you, who dont know how to respact others, how can you help these children.

iam sure there is no parent who dont want there be loved chidren dont find a good job, as matter of fact and reality. going to any country learning their language is important, living here in chinese country u had to learn.chinese.if you want to learn ur mother languge then why dont go back to ur country and learn the language, which is better then HK, why forcing the govenment to do this, which result is notting, cant help the S.A children, u can see how many generation are here in HK before 1997 all S.A go to the tradional E.M schools where what some of the blind members are claiming they should not be teach in chinese, before 1997 20years are passed S.A students are studing in English they still cant find a Good job. and learning in their mother language will help them what a joke is said by these memebers, here, english as the international language cant help them will their mother languge help them, these members who love to critisis others who are helping S.A student should first learn how to respact and how to speak...from you passages it only shows that, you look like an artist. Action Speak loader then words, my friend , at least these organizion are helping not just like
these group other then talking on this forum non-sense and pretending to be nice in that cant help at all. seems u are talking about human rights, the right to choose wat the parents want, the right is still here, the parents can still choose to help their children to learn chinese or not. you seems want to change all the education system(THE MIDUM OF INSTRUCTION), what a joke is to teach them in HK in thier mother languge,
thats why your joke is closed in the Racial discrimination Bill, this show the government dont buy the idea to teach them in their mother language, so you should shout the goverment, organize ur people or the indian friend u mantion. to do some thing, shuting fermi or any body wont help you at all. i respact what u are doing, u have the right to do what u like, same every body have the the right to do what they like.

As these org who are saying DOnt teach them in chinese, i want to know iam sure, beside their own members there is no NGO, agreeing this issue , nor any S.A org. beside some people.

the majority S.A shows that they want to teach thier chidren in chinese, as many schools are now having more S.A students, if you point was right , they should have left HK. for their mother languge, how can you expact they learn there mother languge not chinese and in the future u will see them in stable job.

there is no free Good in this world

Agree with Ah Oi

The main point is to give them REAL choices.

Like what I said in my paper (Multiculturalism in Hong Kong), there is no way and useless forcing everybody to learn Cantonese and Chinese, but also we should help those who want to learn.

Now, our suggestion (CSL - Chinese/Cantonese as Second Language syllabus) (should be the author's suggestion, in fact) is to provide the students with a better choice when they want to start to learn our language.

A local Indian friend of mine has even asked me to teach her Mandarin, and I said yes. When they are interested, HELP is needed. They can't learn by themselves, given that they have much worse language environment than local Chinese children.

re: 韋言

應該是K12全程都有（不肯定），社區學院和大學就一定無。如果到高三仍不能用英語學習，應該不可能入大學吧。即使是社區學院，亦需通過某些英文程度測試才會讓你讀大學程度的課程。

謝謝，還有些問題

請問知否這些課程最高是多少年級？小學，初中，高中，大專？

某程度，這個雙語課程面對着類似香港中中面對的疑難。

re: 韋言

"Bilingual education programs allow the students to take their courses in the language spoken in their homes, while learning English in a special class."

http://www.proenglish.org/issues/education/nycboe.html
(a website against bilingual education)