香港獨立媒體 - Comments for "願黎巴嫩人有一夜安眠"

以敘巴人

hevangel 的提案雖然是舊話（原有版本是阿巴斯提出，建立以巴合併國），但是，係個好提議。阿巴斯提出這個妙計，實在令我對他敬重。

我唔明白韋言為何把這個提議看成偏袒以色列，怎以講為「惡人嬴晒」。這個提案如果能落實是所有溫和派的勝利（前提是以巴兩國選民都無損失），只有惡人不利。把衝突內化，有何不好？

可惜，這個提案以色列選民的損失是較大的，平衡點抓不著，以色列拒絕阿巴斯的要求，所以無法落實。不過，阿巴斯卻換取而以色列的政治信任。

對中東的認識

I like Guardian Unlimited

Headline: Blair to tell Bush: We need a ceasefire
http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,,1832122,00.html

Too many people have died already. This just make no sense.

Stop the war. Stop the bombing. Ceasefire! Ceasefire!

Gee..

Anyone comment would be welcomed at this time. With exception to the foul mouth "thing" Frostig.

Thanks, 阿野!

Got it.

War is cruel. Try to earn peace from wars is the most stupid thing to do......

對中東的認識

我覺得要對中東地區現時的各種暴力、衝突和戰爭有看法和立場，實在要先看很多報導和資料，因為我們對這個地區的歷史和現況認識實在太少了。過去我一直只是看香港報章的報導，而其中大部份報章採用的都是英美幾個大新聞社的報導，所以觀點很受英美主流看法影響。現在有互聯網，要找各種不同的報導和看法，比過去易了很多，問題是我們是否願意花時間去找這些資料來看。

這裡我會向大家推薦英國The Independent的記者Robert Fisk的報導。他長時間在貝魯特生活，不但中東地區的歷史和現況有廣泛的認識，對戰爭和各種衝突對平民的傷害也有很深刻的體會。他的報導在網上很容易找到。他寫過一本書叫Pity the Nation: Lebanon at War，香港多間大學的圖書館都可以借到。

另外，我對以巴問題的看法也很受已故學者Edward Said的影響，他有幾本談巴勒斯坦的書，網上也很容易找到他寫的文章看。

除了討論甚麼對不對，還可以直接看

http://israelscrimes.blogspot.com/

看過後甚麼都說不出，甚麼都不想說。

stop the war machine!

Hahaha!

林輝 fred, you are funny!

I guess Bush really wants this, actually.

歷史的問題吧﹖

朱迪﹕
明白﹗謝﹗
Um... 可是﹐那為甚麼只去以色列領事館請願﹖

Cliff:
Thanks! (Anyway, ignore that 'thing', please! He is being irrational now, attacking me whenever possible.)
I really don't mean to make any meaningful opinion, just I have too many question marks in my mind. I am so glad that you have read my comments into details. I truly appreciate it! Frankly, no need to defend for me, I am already very happy that I can learn more about this though the discussion. I know I don't know enough to comment on this, and that's why I have asked so many questions. Except some meaningless mechanic attacks, the constructive comments are helpful to me, though many people don't agree with my stance. Anyway, I am thankful.
And, I personally think that whether the two Israeli soldiers are released or not is a major concern on this battle, as these two soldiers have been treated as the 'MAIN REASON' for starting this war. It is important for someone to tell the world that they are already released, so we can bravely, without hesitation, tell Israel to stop the lie and to stop the excuse. If not, they have 'reason', and just like how Japan 'entered' China on 7.7., those people will always have such a lousy excuse to cover themselves. (I know I am stupid to say such things......)
Well, again, please accept my gratitude from the bottom of my heart!

阿藹﹕
現在中國的確很多藉口想進攻台灣啊﹗反正﹐我討厭戰爭﹔戰爭必定會央及池魚﹐就算發起戰爭的原因多有道理。
我無法理解的是﹐這不是歷史問題嗎﹖誰能解決﹖
也許﹐真的像有人說﹐寬恕對方﹐和平共處才是解決問題的最後方法吧﹖

問題﹕以色列一帶的爭奪不是自聖經時代已經開始了得嗎﹖那麼多人堅持要爭這片土地﹐真的有辦法教任何一方放棄嗎﹖問題是﹐以色列人堅持覺得那土地是應該屬於他們的呀﹗然後巴勒斯坦人又長期居住在此﹐Lebanese 又想趕走以色列人﹐把他們趕絕﹐每一方都覺得自己是神性的﹐是正義的﹐認為那地是他們的家園。怎樣叫誰停火﹐教誰放棄呢﹖
這一次阻止得了以色列﹐下一次勸止得了誰﹖那已經不只政治的問題﹐也不只歷史﹐更牽涉信仰和不同傳統等。我不是認同以色列這次的行為﹐可是﹐有辦法保護這地區的長期平衡跟和平麼﹖還有﹐大家想Lebanon 的平民的時候﹐可也會想想以色列的憂慮嗎﹖

(以下例子不好﹐只是我累得要命的時候勉強能想到的東西﹕大家看再見螢火蟲覺得兩個小主角慘吧﹖從他們的角度看﹐他們都是無辜的﹐平民是無辜的。可是﹐美國(或者聯軍吧﹐沒所謂的。)炸廣島和長崎真的完全不對嗎﹖沒有意義嗎﹖沒有原因嗎﹖一丁點道理都沒有嗎﹖
我也認為那很殘忍﹐可是﹐對於苦戰中的另一方來說﹐做這種不人道的事情也算有他們的因由。
真的﹐不是想替以色列講好話﹐也不是說現在是同樣狀況-肯定是不同的case﹔可是﹐以色列真的沒有受被侵擾的壓力﹐全沒有受威脅嗎﹖真的﹐但願有人高聲地告訴我完全沒有﹐那我就可以義無反顧地幫忙聲討以色列。我是認真的。只是﹐我現在還是陷在矛盾中。是該幫Lebanon 還是不該呢﹖是否Lebanon 完全沒錯呢﹖這事情真的能完結嗎﹖......)

回韋言

理論上任誰管治也不是問題﹐選以色列政府是因為巴人政府實在太不像樣﹐至少以色列還算是一個建全的民主法治政府。

巴人家園的問題只是產權問題﹐沒有就是就沒有﹐有什麼好追。中國解放時不少人的土地給國有化了﹐逃難到香港的人還不是活得好端端的。最重要是產權制度確立﹐讓人民可以展望未來。若只是死命搶奪阿公的遺產﹐在國家層面上﹐誰的拳頭大就誰話事﹐是不事生產的活動。

正如張五常說過﹐只要產權法明確﹐把國有企業分了給高幹也沒有所謂的道理一樣。過幾世代資本就自然會流入能有效使有的人手上﹐以巴土地的道理亦相同。

以色列內猶太教信徒享有特權是不對的﹐也應該被取消。

還有最重要的一點﹐就是新的以巴政府要高壓打擊極端宗教團體(不論是回教還是猶太教)﹐宗教是妨礙中東和平的主要原因之一。其中政府要主力要反對的﹐是兩教中不許通婚的教義。只要鼓勵通婚﹐在十多世代內以巴兩人就可以全完融合。像今天的中國一樣各地的人也都是中國人一樣。

另回林輝。
全世界給美國統治也不錯﹐不過可惜美國可沒有閒情逸致去理沒有利益關係的地方。我們只好退而求其次﹐讓全世界也推行美國的民主政制﹐政教分離保障人權好了。

on arrogance ...

watch out ...

when we made the comment "We really don't need to waste our time to "educate" an ignorant, yet arrogant individual who have a lot of uninformed opinions.",

when we said "無知不是借口",

there is already a lot of arrogance, and a bit of condescension in you ...

no one agrees to israel's disproportinate use of force ... frostig did said that "明白這事情牽涉很多人命﹐任誰也很著急" and a very good question was also raised : 可是﹐是否指責以色列就是最好的﹐最應該的﹐最有用的做法呢﹖

i know right now this should not be the time for a blaming game, but to put the whole thing in a better perspective, maybe we can have a little thought experiment here :

1. what if 真主黨 released the 2 hostages right at the beginning of israel's air strike ???

2. what if 真主黨 hadn't shower rockets onto a number of israeli cities ???

too many what if's here, why not ask :

1. what are the root cause of the middle east, or israel - arab conflict ???

2. is it really true that all arab countries 以消滅以色列為己任 ???

3. what about israel ??? ... does she also 以消滅 arab 為己任 ???

4. if 2 & 3 are not correct, then how can peace be brought right upon that piece of land ??? ... can we set up some, say, demilitarized zone in both the northern and sourthern part of israel ??? ... then let both sides of the world, the israeli and the arabian world, develop, economically and socially ...

having a protest against an individual war is good, but it is only limited to that single event ... and sadly so, there will be more such events coming, and more protests ...

5. what happens in the bush admin ??? ... with casualties mounting on both sides, more so on the lebanon side, how can bush said an immediate ceasefire is not the right thing to do ??? ... does he think "keep on fighting till everyone dies" is the best policy to end the conflict ???

6. and what happens to the US politics there ??? ... if i am not mistaken, bush's approach got almost the full support of the congress ...

7. and what happens to democracy ??? ... when you and me, and hopefully lots of other people too, all agree that before we do anything, let's ceasefire first, the US congress, which is supposed to represent the public, supports the aggressor ... anything wrong with the congress ??? ... or anything wrong with the system itself ??? ... the latter question may be a more intriguing and thought-provoking question ..

這太荒謬了吧

不如讓美國統治全世界吧, 那麼所有國際問題都可以解決了!

hevangel，你在說笑嗎？

根本沒可能。

第一，甚麼叫做保家園？很多人的家園本來就在現在的以色列境內。他們正是為奪回家園和以色列對抗啊！

第二，這樣是惡人嬴晒。你憑甚麼認為以色列政府比其他兩個政府好？不如改為，三國盡歸黎巴嫩？

第三，即使在以色列內，也不是所有猶太人平等。正統猶太教信徒，可以不用交稅，不用參軍，又有政治權力。

以敘巴人

其實最有效解決問題中東的方法﹐為什麼不把以斜巴三國全劃歸以色列管理﹐這讓衡突的規模就可以在控制范圍之內。問題不再是主權獨立的戰爭﹐最多只是像舊南非的種族問題。只要確保以敘巴三種人民有同等的權利﹐問題就可以和平地解決。

對大部份只求安居樂業的人民來說﹐只要政府施政良好有效率﹐不論掛那枝國旗分別也不大。這個方案唯一失望的人是那些激進回教徒﹐但他們本來就不應該被容許存在。

放棄國家﹐換取和平﹐保障家園。

Good one: 無知不是借口!

We really don't need to waste our time to "educate" an ignorant, yet arrogant individual who have a lot of uninformed opinions.

A few years back, there was a program in helping Palestinian and Israel children to get to know each other, so that they would grow up and not hate each other.

The program was a success. A few years later, the follow-up program would no longer get these children to play together.

That is the sad part of being in constant conflict.

Anyway, like I said in the other related thread. Israel bombing Lebanon for having terrorists in the district, is like Beijing government bombing Mongkok just because there is a lot of Triad members. It makes no sense.

Israel should stop the bombing, unconditionally. And find other ways to deal with terrorists.

沒有人說責任全在以色列

......

無知不是借口

從1982-2000年, 很大片的黎巴嫩領地均被敍利亞和以色列佔領, 以色列在2000年撤出前, 亦扶植了當地民兵管治黎巴嫩南部. 黎巴嫩政府的管治範圍大概就是貝魯特市區和主要的城鎮.

台灣打中國的類比令人噴飯. 若說黎巴嫩立國宣言以對抗以色列為己任可以合理化今天以色列的入侵; 你知道嗎, 國民黨逃到台灣時的綱領是反攻大陸啊!!!