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中大改用英語授課─反殖文化戰在回歸後七年才正式開始

請聯署:<哭中大>──致中大師生的公開信

致各學長/學姊/同學:

我們是一群中大的同學及校友,最近知道中大為了配合「國際化」計劃,秘密要求各學系以英語教授所有必修科目以及部份選修科目,並要求立即於下學年(05/06年度)實施!

中文大學雖於四十多年前由殖民地政府創立,但經師生這些年來的艱苦維持,總算在這片前殖民地裡保住一點對中文的重視。七十年代,中大學生積極參與本土的「中文運動」,爭取中文為法定語言,抵抗殖民政府的打壓;想不到在回歸中國七年多的今天,中文竟然再一次受到壓制!

對校方這個單方面的決定,我們萬分震驚!對於校方對自身語言文化的輕視,我們感到憤怒!

為此,我們撰寫了以下一篇給所有中大師生的公開信,並以「哭中大」為名,以表達我們對中大理想日漸被大學官僚吞併的悲憤。我們現廣邀各位對中大仍有期望的校友、同學聯署,為捍衛中大仝人多年來堅守的理想盡一分力!

我們仍會繼續接受聯署,有興趣的校友/同學,請隨時致電 98003204 或電郵至 [email protected] 與中大學生會幹事胡浩堂同學聯絡,聯署請註明中文姓名、畢業年份(或年級)、所屬書院及學系,亦請各位廣傳給其他相識的中大校友及同學。謝謝!

最後,我們希望能將這封信函及各位的聯署親身交給劉遵義校長,希望校長能細聽我們的聲音,立即停止正在推行中的有關改變授課語言的政策,讓師生共同參與討論及推動符合中大理想的發展。

捍衛中大理想小組 暨 香港中文大學學生會謹啟

二零零五年一月三十一日

相關資料:

中大學生會有關中大「國際化」及「英語化」政策的網站

(新版) 請聯署:哭中大---致中大師生的公開信

最新聯署名單

反對劉遵義校長假「國際化」之名,推動「教育商品化」為實要求公開諮詢、檢討大學發展方向,開放校政民主參與

反對中大新教學語言政策藝術系校友聯署

中大﹕英語授課僅一成 回應學生會大字報「不實指控」

中大聲明謂雙語政策不變 但稱八成學系決收國際生

中大校方"再度"澄清:關於香港中文大學招收非本地生和教學語言的一些誤解和事實

中大政政系同學有關校方新教學語言政策以及國際化計劃的聲明

中大學生會及捍衛中大理想小組回應中大校方的澄清

相關討論:

南洋大學--一部不該被遺忘的歷史

馬傑偉:建立一間本土化國際化並重的中文大學

梁文道:說英文的中文大學

「絕無其事」的全面英語教學

子華:中大是由學者領導,還是由公關人員來領導的呢?

方曉舒: 粗口與咄咄逼人的語言:也來哭中大學生會

中大﹕英語授課僅一成 回應學生會大字報「不實指控」

梁寶山:誰在妖言惑眾?誰在暗渡陳倉?中大唔好自欺欺人!

蕎菁華:中大人好哭

鄧羽騰:珍惜中文

梁寶山:「中大國際化討論會」詳細報導

關子尹:借德經驗 勿捨漢取英

戴遠雄:捍衛中大精神 反對國際化

戴遠雄:南來的積鬱

安徒:廢墟中大:中大認同的(後)殖民解讀

蕎菁華:中大以英語授課

英文大學

[維園阿伯] 大學國際化

迷失香港、迷失中大──本土語言在「國際化」下的萎縮

楊綱凱聲稱中大維持雙語政策

梁寶山:哭新亞─寫在改吃洋奶之後

梁寶山:中大改用英語授課─反殖文化戰在回歸後七年才正式開始

重貼回應:

為何反對?
明報 喬菁華
2005-01-31

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菁英會
中大以英語授課

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中文大學推動國際化,招收更多的非本地、非內地生。美國的一流大學很注重學生多元化(diversity),盡量取錄不同膚色、種族、國籍的優秀學生,讓學生在四年大學生活中,透過日常的學生交流,領略不同的民族、文化和習慣,擴闊世界視野,不致坐井觀天。

香港過往由於大學學位短缺,學生競爭進入大學,情激烈,招收外來學生,並不政治正確。如今香港的大學學位充足,反而優秀學生的供應減少(因不少人在中五畢業前已出外留學,中學會考後離港的也不在少數),本地大學招攬外國學生,正合時宜。

本地七家大學之中,只有中文大學不指定以英語為授課語言,其他七間都號稱是英語大學。中大的優良傳統是兩文三語並重,教師可選擇用英語、國語、粵語授課,悉隨尊便。到了二十一世紀,英語已成為國際學術交流的共通語言,亞洲學生和教授倚賴英語更深,把日本、泰國、印尼、香港、中國大陸、南韓、印度的教授放在一起,他們不說英語的話,便無法互相溝通。這是一個現實的問題。與母語教學的優劣辯論完全無關,中大要成為世界一流大學,完全不開辦

英語課程是不可能的。喬菁華當年往曼谷法政大學攻讀經濟學碩士學位,全校皆說泰語,只有我們的碩士課程講英語,便是一例。

中大現擬推行選擇性的英語教學,凡招收國際學生的系別,必須提供以英語教學的主修課程(學生可分中英語兩組,導修課也如是,本地生可自由選擇英語組或中文組)和若干選修科課程,讓國際學生可以取得足夠的學分畢業,這樣的安排,對本地生絕無壞處,很多中大生來自英文中學,進了大學為何反而反對英語授課?國際化的最大得益者是學生自己,不是教授不是劉遵義校長。部分學科以英語教學,並不傷害中大的中國文化精神,反正中文系、哲學系、歷史系的大部分課程都是用中文上課的,中大生的英語水平(平均而言,以IELTS成績比較)僅稍為落後於港大這家老牌英文大學,中大學生會反對英語課程,看來沒有什麼理據。

~_~ I agree with that

-- kchken 於 January 31, 2005 12:13 PM

不是要反對國際化, 但......
"部分學科以英語教學,並不傷害中大的中國文化精神,反正中文系、哲學系、歷史系的大部分課程都是用中文上課的"

難道中大創校精神, 只能於中文系、哲學系、歷史系的大部分課程中體現嗎? 又或者, 只有選讀中文系、哲學系、歷史系的大部分課程, 才能領略中大的中國文化精神?

不是要反對國際化, 而是要對國際化有通盤的認識. 更重要是不能一刀切, 可是以校方一貫的手法, 只有學生關注一下, 才有望出現一個妥協的手法, 否則中文大學很快便要改名了. 希望社會人士不要只被國際化之好處所迷惑, 而要從多角度暸解此事.

-- Jacky Lee 於 January 31, 2005 07:10 PM

“諷刺”是可以亂用的嗎?!
“很不幸也很諷刺地,我們的大陸同胞,較香港人更看不起自己的語言,只會挑那些以英語授課的香港的大學來讀。”

在這裏,我想告訴你,你的“大陸同胞”從來沒有看不起自己的母語­。如果中大提供足夠多的普通話課程,如果每個中大學生都以自己的母語為榮,說流利的普通話,誰也不會“只挑以英語授課的大學來讀”。04年度中大有三百名交流學生,其中70名來自內地大學(並不向中大交納學費),他們在選課方面遇到很大困難(中大大多課程以廣東話授課),校方出於此考慮而增加英語授課課程,似乎與“以搶錢為目標”的說法相差甚遠。

我們認為,作者如此抵觸英語授課是嚴重排斥外來學生、眼中心中沒有他人的表現。抵觸中大的“國際化”趨勢、就能維護中文大學的傳統嗎?作為國際化大學的一員,如此的坐井觀天、以幼稚的方式 “反英抗美”,難道這就是有理可據、就是理智麼?

中文永遠是我們最引以為豪的,我們來香港中文大學學習是為了得到好的教育。而語言上的障礙無疑是我們學習中最大的困難。
如果認為增加英語授課課程是錯誤的,那請同學們將中文堅持到底。別忘了廣東話只是中文的一種方言,普通話才是你們口中的“母語”!

-- 叶子 於 January 31, 2005 11:34 PM

中學搞母語, 大學搞外語, 點搞?
其實我覺得事件涉及更大的問題: 在教改下, 大部份中學都以母語教, 而大學的核心必修課則用英文教, 是矛盾的政策...

而且在落實這政策的時候, 一般的做法是老師在開學第一課是問有沒有人聽不明廣東話, 如果沒有人的話就會用廣東話講, 否則就用英文; 但大陸的同學可能既聽不明廣東話, 又聽不明英文, 那麼英文究竟在為誰服務呢? 就為了學校國際化的形象?

特首話要學中央政府要以人為本, 這又是否以人為本呢?

-- 阿藹 於 February 01, 2005 12:03 AM

回應葉子
我也算是個中大人,對於外來的同學,只會感到歡迎,絕無排斥之意。

只是當中大討論用何種語言授課的時候,考慮的除了未來將會增加至一成的外來同學,也不能怱略其餘九成多本地同學的感受吧?

從本地同學的角度看,如果老師的英語良好的話,其實用中文或是英文授課都沒有問題;但是否所有老師的英語都到達一個能夠將意思完全表達的水平呢?不善於用英語表達的老師,被迫使用英語授課,最終所有人(包括本地同學、外來同學和老師)都是受害者。

然而,如果因為要英語授課,老師們就必須說一口好英語的話,那麼大學老師的價值,是在於英語呢,還是在於學術水平?如果將語文能力置於學術水平之先,又是否捨本逐末?

採用英語教學與否,當有更大的彈性,而非以國際化的大旗、高壓的政策去推行。對於外地同學,我相信是大學應投入更多資源去照顧他們的需要,例如提供學習廣東話的機會。我也曾到外地留學,我相信融入當地的生活、了解地方的語言和文化,才是一個留學生最大的得益。

至於我的母語--我會毫不猶豫地告訴你--是廣東話,不是普通話。

-- fred 於 February 01, 2005 12:28 AM

香港有母語的嗎?
香港有母語的嗎?從前是殖民者的語言英語,今天是另一個殖民者的普通話。母語教學,只是美麗的誤會。
如果給學生選,要英語還是普通話,大部份都會選英語。
如果要貫徹母語教學,香港各大學要取消英語課本,如此才是母語教學。課本用英文,功課用英文,餘下的只是講課和討論。困難只是英語的講和聽,而不是母語不母語。
而且,香港的中中和114間英中,究竟入大學比例如何?顯然英中佔大多數。並不存在中學用母語而大學不。而且,最近又話會改,將有更多中學轉用英語。
母語教學,只是一個回歸後的一時愛國頭腦發熱。

-- 子華 於 February 01, 2005 12:33 AM

回應葉子: 普通話不是母語
其實我看到那一句“很不幸也很諷刺地,我們的大陸同胞,較香港人更看不起自己的語言,只會挑那些以英語授課的香港的大學來讀。”我亦覺得很不對勁, 有點歧視性的想像, 後悔沒有電郵給組織者改錯...

不過要指出的是普通話不是絕大多數中國同胞的母語, 我們的母語有廣東話, 福建話, 湖南話, 湖北話, 上海話, 東北話, 四川話... 普通話只是官方語言. 所以很多時候不是英文令到大陸同胞看不起自己的母語, 而是普通話, 在大陸大學裡, 說得滿口鄉下話的人就給人看不起, 很多人都來壓抑自己的母語. 當然, 可以說廣東話也不是香港的母語, 因為我們有很多潮州人, 福建人, 霸權與邊緣的界線永遠是一種政治...

-- 阿藹 於 February 01, 2005 12:47 AM

也請學會尊重
回應葉子︰大概公開信是不應該以偏蓋全,預設了內地交流生選擇英語授課的理由。

不過,也請葉子能平和地想一想,為什麼會提出要求中大師生(當然要把老師也包括在內吧)一起學好普通話去遷就幾百名交流生的想法,而非更合乎情理地要求自己及同來自內地的學生先學好廣東話然後去上課? 語言隱含的權力關係對你來說,真的那麼理所當然嗎?

另外,把中大學生會的要求,上綱上線為「反英抗美」,是一種粗暴的簡化和扭曲。提出批評,應先把人家的意思讀個明白。

希望你在香港的日子,除了能得到好的教育,也能令你明白何謂尊重一個地方的歷史、尊重一個地方的文化。

-- 熊一豆 於 February 01, 2005 01:04 AM

Really? CU students' English is worse???
Response to somebody's theory about 'CU students have a lower English standard than HKU students'.
People tend to ignore the effect of inputs in a lot of situations. Like people think that famous schools are better because their students have better academic results. In this case, it is the same. HKU asks for at least a 'D' in HKALE AS UE, while CU asks for 'E'. And there are specific departments with different requirements. That may be the case, perhaps HKU students speak better English, but does it necessarily imply that English education in HKU is better than in CUHK? If one can make such an assumption with such a superficial impression, then we have to challenge the logique of this person, because there is no relationship between the result and the proposed reason.
Why trying to KILL CUHK and kill its special, independent culture? Why...

-- Frostig 於 February 01, 2005 01:05 AM

普通話不是我們的“母語”!
I speak Cantonese, it is true. I know it is a dialect, clearer than anybody else. But, if you think that the 'NATIONAL LAGUAGE' or 'OFFICIAL LANGUAGE' should be my mother tongue, then I am very sorry, please learna tiny little bit more about Linguistics.
I know that people have been misunderstanding that Putonghua WAS our mother tongue. But then, if a dialect can't be your mother tongue, how about Malaysians and Indonesians? Who should treat the others' language as mother tongue? How about Swiss German? Can they possibly call high German (Hoch Deutsch)their mother tongue, which they may not be able to speak or even understand at all. And the Indians and Chinese in Malaysian should call Malaysian mother tongue?
Funny theory, funny thought!
How ridiculous it can be if everyone follow your logic???
I just want to point out that, mother tongue is what we learn, probably from our parents, ever since we were born. Some people can be bilangual, trilangual, etc. Even if you can speak your second or thrid language(s) as fluent as native speakers, it is not your mother tongue.
So, except those from Beijing, who can say Putonghua is their mother tongue? If one (and anyone) wants to replace all Chinese dialects with Putonghua, I will be the first one standing against it to fight for this culture-killing practice. It is another support to globalisation, helping to clear away multi-cultural roots in our country. And use of Putonghua solely is a means against diversification......
Please take some time try to understand the serious problem behind this problematice thought!
Thank you very much!

-- Frostig 於 February 01, 2005 01:20 AM

喬菁華胡說八道
「中文大學推動國際化,招收更多的非本地、非內地生。美國的一流大學很注重學生多元化(diversity),盡量取錄不同膚色、種族、國籍的優秀學生,讓學生在四年大學生活中,透過日常的學生交流,領略不同的民族、文化和習慣,擴闊世界視野,不致坐井觀天。」

回應:美國大學會不會為了國際化和多元化,而不說英文,而改說墨西哥話,或中文?我們的多元化,是放棄自己的母語去遷就別人,不要亂加比附!

「香港過往由於大學學位短缺,學生競爭進入大學,情況激烈,招收外來學生,並不政治正確。如今香港的大學學位充足,反而優秀學生的供應減少(因不少人在中五畢業前已出外留學,中學會考後離港的也不在少數),本地大學招攬外國學生,正合時宜。」

回應:香港的大學學位充足嗎?香港目前只有18%的中學生可以讀大學,遠遠低於很多國家,這叫充足?
又,本地大學招收的外國學生的標準,為了爭學生,一定會愈降愈低,到最後必然會導致只問是否有錢,不問是否有能力的程度,結果可能是拖垮整個大學的教育水平。(看看今天英國大專教育的情況便知)
又,不要誤會,現在招收的外來學生,絕大部份來自國內,其他的很可能是東南亞的華裔學生。那麼,為什麼不可以說廣東話或國語?

「本地七家大學之中,只有中文大學不指定以英語為授課語言,其他七間都號稱是英語大學。中大的優良傳統是兩文三語並重,教師可選擇用英語、國語、粵語授課,悉隨尊便。到了二十一世紀,英語已成為國際學術交流的共通語言,亞洲學生和教授倚賴英語更深,把日本、泰國、印尼、香港、中國大陸、南韓、印度的教授放在一起,他們不說英語的話,便無法互相溝通。這是一個現實的問題。與母語教學的優劣辯論完全無關,中大要成為世界一流大學,完全不開辦英語課程是不可能的。喬菁華當年往曼谷法政大學攻讀經濟學碩士學位,全校皆說泰語,只有我們的碩士課程講英語,便是一例。」

回應:這個說法簡直是牛頭不搭馬嘴。現在有人說不用學習英文嗎?現在討論的問題,是在說要將不同國家的「教授」放在一起嗎?正如作者自己承認,泰國有那間大學,好像要像今天的中大這樣,不問學生的能力,要求所有學系所有老師都轉用英文授課嗎?日本、印尼、中國大陸、南韓、印度,會好像我們這樣,要學生放棄自己的母語嗎?

如果這與母語教學的優劣完全無關,那和什麼有關?敢問一句,作者是否贊成母語教育?如果贊成,那為什麼一定必須要用英文上課?這個代價是否值得付?如果不贊成,那麼請問我們的新亞護法,又如何面對自己的求學歷史,如何可以仍引七十年代農圃道的新亞生活為榮?當年的新亞歷史系,藝術系,經濟系,社會系,會好像校方建議的,全部轉是用英文授課?

「中大現擬推行選擇性的英語教學,凡招收國際學生的系別,必須提供以英語教學的主修課程(學生可分中英語兩組,導修課也如是,本地生可自由選擇英語組或中文組)和若干選修科課程,讓國際學生可以取得足夠的學分畢業,這樣的安排,對本地生絕無壞處,很多中大生來自英文中學,進了大學為何反而反對英語授課?國際化的最大得益者是學生自己,不是教授不是劉遵義校長。部分學科以英語教學,並不傷害中大的中國文化精神,反正中文系、哲學系、歷史系的大部分課程都是用中文上課的,中大生的英語水平(平均而言,以IELTS成績比較)僅稍為落後於港大這家老牌英文大學,中大學生會反對英語課程,看來沒有什麼理據。」

回應:這個人稱新亞護法的校友,對於中國文化的理解,真是淺薄得令人吃驚。難道只有中文系、哲學系、歷史系的學生,才配用母語學習?只有這幾個系的人,才需要了解中國文化?有沒有想過,當中大八成以上學科的必修科目全部轉為英文上課,整個中大的文化生態會發生多大轉變?對同學的個性培養,課堂參與以及對自己母語的自信心的打擊,會有多大?作者到底對當下的大學教育有多少了解?到底是否知道,全港今日七所大學的所謂英文教育,到底是什麼的一回事?母語教育,是中大最值得保留的強項,對培養學生的學術興趣和批判能力至關重要,我們竟要一手將它毀掉,是不是太蠢?

主修課程可以分中英兩組?難道你會相信,對於一個只有幾十人的學系來說,會行得通?是不是天真了點?即使可以分中、英兩組,你猜學生會選那一組?

作者問:「很多中大生來自英文中學,進了大學為何反而反對英語授課?」還不簡單,英語授課不好嘛!

作者說:「中大生的英語水平(平均而言,以IELTS成績比較)僅稍為落後於港大這家老牌英文大學。」既然如此,那豈不說明,中大更加沒有理由放棄母語教育?

喬校友,請不要忘本,你是新亞書院優良的母語教育一手培養出來的「傑出」校友!你有何面目去見錢唐張諸先生?!

-- 無慧 於 February 01, 2005 03:15 AM

是中文大學校方歧視大陸學生,不是學生會
回應葉子:

不是學生會的同學認為大陸同學瞧不起中文,是中文大學校方的說法,請看中大副校長的信:

"The Steering Committee on Internationalization of Student Mix will, in the light of the readiness or otherwise of programmes to offer courses taught in English, propose to the Resource Allocation Committee an allocation of the non-local intake quota across different programmes. This non-local quota caters for both international students and students from the mainland. It is noted that most of the latter do not speak Cantonese and indicates that an English-speaking academic environment is one of the main reasons for choosing a university in Hong Kong over those on the mainland. "

如果大家細心讀讀,會讀出什麼來呢?
如果讀不出,容我賣個關子,下回再分解!

呼籲一下,請所有關心中大的朋友,請用不同的途徑,向中大校方反映你們的意見和不滿。當中大八成的學系都以英文授課時,不僅對中大本身,而是對香港整體人才的培養,都會有致命的打擊!

-- 無慧 於 February 01, 2005 03:23 AM

回應阿藹
阿藹,如我上面的回應指出,是中大校方認為大陸同學來香港選校的一個重要考慮,是要用英文授課,而這正正是校方匆匆要轉英文的一個主要原因。所以,學生會的判斷是對的,即不是為了外國學生而轉英文,而是為了國內學生而轉英文。(下學年收250個大陸生,30個非大陸生)

正正是這樣,事情才顯得特別的荒謬,即大家都是華人,都可以用中文(廣東話or國語),卻偏偏要全部轉為英文!

在這次的改動中,中文系由於不用英文教學,所以便不能收非本地生。這是另一個極大的荒謬。試想,中文系不是最應多收大陸學生的嗎?但卻因為中文系不能用英文教中文,所以不能收!
(這是我的推斷,如果有人知道中文系的內情,請告知)但如果我的推斷正確,那真是最大的笑話,應該廣泛宣傳!

又,楊綱凱的信,完全沒有點出問題的所在,即兩點:
1, 整個改制完全是黑箱作業,老師及同學完全沒有被諮詢,且在極短時間內推行,根本不考慮老師及同學是否能夠承受這麼大的轉變;
2, 整個學校有八成學系會轉為英文教授,而且聲稱是各學系自己同意的!想想,中大一夜之間便崩潰了,沒有人吭聲?四十年的母語教育的成果,一下便都自我否定,都不要了?支持母語教育便是反國際化?反多元化?因為學生不求上進?

是什麼令得這種情況出現?所有老師突然都全力擁抱國際化?

只有在這種背境下,你才會明白學生會的公開信,是針對中大整個知識群,而不是僅僅針對校方的!學生會的悲憤,不是校方霸道,而是中大的老師和學系,在不理學生和教育理念的情況下,徹底的無聲無息的屈服,這才是最令人傷心的事!

還是那一句,各位校友,不要只靠學生會,幫幫忙,救救中大吧!否則,要哭都來不及了!(例如可否動員校友找一天一起回校抗議?)

-- 無慧 於 February 01, 2005 03:48 AM

feedback to 葉子
I am not a CU old boy and not interested in the arguments in principles among CU guys.

I just want to say that my mother only speaks in Cantonese so that my mother tongue is Cantonese, without a choice.

The forceful promotion of Putonghua makes me sick and please dun change my monther's hometown and language with your argonat attitude. To me, Putonghua is just a foreign language like English. What is worse is that Putonghua is just an artifical language for the ease of communication within China as a working or learning language. Strictly speaking, Putonghua is nobody's monther tongue.

If you dun want to learn Cantonese, please stay in mainland to twist your tongue.

-- 錢恨少 於 February 01, 2005 09:23 AM

印度用母語?
資料錯誤:
印度有上千種語言,無限多的 "母語", 只有強勢的語言和弱勢的語言,不會有任何一種語言自認方言。目前印度能夠統一全國的,只有英語,大部份印度大學都說前度殖民者的語言:即英語。
在普通話和白話書面語未成為中國的國語之前,中國也沒有國語和方言的區分。香港大學 HKU 的創辦,就是要訓練會說英語的中國人,當時還未有五四白話文運動,和印度的情況差不多。HKU的創辦目的,就是想訓練更多會說英語的中國人,將來甚至以英語作為中國的國語。如果不是五四出現那一批人推廣白話文為國語,可能全中國今日都在說英語。
另外,孫中山是廣東人,他只會講廣東話及南方土話,民國革命以南方為根據地,滿清退位後,民國成立,全國上下沒有統一的國語,在一次會議投票選定民國官方語言,廣東話只以一票之微落選。
母語?國語?...........??

-- 子華 於 February 01, 2005 10:00 AM

改了哭中大書
為了回應上述的討論, 中大學生會改了哭中大書的用語.

-- webmaster 於 February 01, 2005 11:40 AM

點解主張中文教學會排斥中國人?
查實學生會家下想推母語教育,好似當年0既中文運動咁。不過時移勢逆,同學點會以為可以同當年一樣。
當年係要響殖民地爭中文法定地位,都無話要母語教學。後來司徒華佢地見個殖民政府俾佢地搞到手忙腳亂,先至成日話中中俾人歧視,先至話要母語教學。但係母語教學係乜?其實無乜人真係想清楚過。發回歸燒0既時候,一d人話母語教學就係全部普通話、國語。當時都唔見有人出聲。依家其實好似程介明佢地都係想推全面普通話。
但你估香港學生支持普通話多,定係英語多?
你地依家話反對英文授課,但其實大陸人都話貪呢庶教英文,如果唔係就用普通話。
依家你地俾人覺得,你唔單只反對英文,仲要反對普通話,咁就即係淨係支持廣東話。
咁想問下,咁喜歡中文教學,咁點解唔用所有中國人都講0既普通話?呢d 係過去搞中文運動0既人都無想清楚0既問題。依家強調母語,反而排斥 "中國人",點解?
一個以廣東話為目標的母語運動,係好有 "港獨" 色彩0既口號,就好似台灣依家0既母語運動,就係俾人睇成台獨運動0既一部份,話佢地 "排外" 、"去中國"。
以前中文運動係好似愛國,依家反而係有 "去中國" 之嫌。
你問下中大校長,佢點敢俾大陸人覺得,佢間大學係香港最排斥大陸人,最有本土特色,係廣東方言基地0既大學呀?
話時話,佢一下子走來話,你地咁鍾意中文,不如就普通話教學,你估同學會唔會話好好好?

-- 人丁 路 於 February 01, 2005 12:55 PM

越來越離題︰是維持中文授課不是"推行"母語教育
為什麼要求維持以中大大部份學生都運用並以之思考的語言(廣東話)授課、進行課堂討論,會演變成"推行母語教育"的訴求?

完全是兩回事。

且抛開在理論層面的抽空糾纏,回到學習的根本來理解公開信吧。

我自小就同時會講廣東話、上海話和國語,什麼是母語(當然什麼場合用哪種語言必然隱含某種權力運作,但不在此贅言),我不懂得回答。不過,在此時此地的香港,若我仍是學生,我會選擇廣東話,因為這是自己及大部份同學、老師都掌握並用以思考的語言。以自己最擅長的語言去學習,有什麼問題?現在沒人提議說不要學習英文,又或學習對象(即文本、題目)必定要是中文。不明白為什麼會出現這種誤解。為什麼非要捨易取難呢?

中學讀英中,在進入一個純以英語建立的世界(嚴謹起見,除了中文和中史科)之前,我(相信我的同學亦然)先要學懂的是老師在向我們說什麼。用一種自己不熟悉的語言去理解一個全然陌生的知識世界,學習的興趣及積極提問的意欲必然會減退。這一點不難理解吧?

然後,回到身處的中文世界(沒人會否定香港是一個華人社會吧),發現學到的知識出現接洽困難。意思是說,地理、科學、歷史等科目的專有名詞,我不知道中文叫什麼,人家說中文的時候,我也不知其所云。我想,若果當年老師用廣東話向我教授(英語課本)的話,我的整體常識必然比現在豐富。

或許有人又會說,現在談的是大學,中學經驗是out of the context。我正想告知,在中大,除了主修的英文科用英文之外,我讀哲學、社會、藝術等其他選修科時,實在體會了中學時從缺的學習興趣。生澀難懂以英文書成的理論著作,能夠以廣東話與同學、導師一起討論,我體會到學習的樂趣。

而我明白,我之所以能體會這份學習的樂趣,是因為幾十年前一些先輩的努力。

現在沒有人要無中生有地"推行母語教育",而只是想維持一個令好些學生得益的傳統。

是這麼難明白嗎?

-- 熊一豆 於 February 01, 2005 03:04 PM

爭的是什麼?請看清楚
一豆,謝謝你的分享和回應!因為你所談的讀書經驗,正是問題的關鍵:用自己的母語去學習,那種無間隔投入愉快的感覺,是第二語言所無法替代的。讀書的最終目的,如果是為了求知識求智慧,母語難道不是最好的嗎?

這不是常識嗎?為什麼香港人,在一個屬於自己的地方,用自己的母語接受教育,會是如此波折重重?對於英文的崇拜,呈現的不是一種自我認同的扭曲嗎?一種總是不如人的自卑感!這種自卑感,傷害了多少香港的學生?

今天看明報的頭條,再回看中大校方的所為,真是令人大生感慨。現在連我們的政府,都已承認母語教育的重要性,都已千方百計的鼓勵學校不要轉回英文中學,中文大學竟然開歷史的倒車,匆匆忙忙的放棄自己的母語,放棄自己的傳統,你說可不可氣!

補充一句,今天的中大,其實已有超過一半的課程是用英文講授。學生會要求的不是全面的母語教育,而是給予老師和學生多一點自主的空間,容許廣東話繼續在中大生存下去。

再補充一句,連中大歷史系都要變為英文了。不知他們會怎教中國通史呢?不知歷史系的老師,如何向錢穆交代呢?唉!

-- 無為 於 February 01, 2005 03:34 PM

乜中大學生會唔係要主張推行母語教育嗎?
乜話?乜中大學生會唔係要主張推行母語教育嗎?但明明中大學生會封信係咁寫喎!看:
------------------------------------------
母語教育的優點

我們自身的學習經驗,以及很多國家無數的教學實踐表明,用母語學習,是吸收知識最有效的方法。英文不是我們的母語,我們在日常生活中,也不是使用英語。因此,用廣東話上課,對大多數同學來說,對理解學科的知識、積極參與討論,以及培養我們的批判性思考能力,都是最自然最舒服最有效的方式。
-------------------------------------------
呢個拿出來同人講的論據,但究竟個道理講唔講得通先?世界上各國教育都係母語證明成功,咁講就錯喇。全世界有百多國家,但真係要講唔同人0既母語,起碼有幾萬種。
其實大部份國家都係用自己0既國語,國語就唔一定係每個人0既母語。司徒華當年都無搞清楚。老實講,講不同母語0既人,都要學同一種國語,其實都係被逼,即係透過禁制方言,有d手段係好粗暴。廣東人講普通話今日仍然係好爛,但係你去廣州問下,廣東的大學生係唔係可以 "舒舒服服" 用廣東話,點解?一係國家逼落來,規定。二係同學來自全國各地,唔講普通話講乜?
香港人大部份講廣東話,係,但唔好以為個個都好舒服,好似講母語咁舒服,唔好以為唔係排斥緊人,因為好多新移民都係好辛苦去講呢種香港式廣東話,佢地都唔係講緊母語架!

-- 人丁 路 於 February 01, 2005 04:40 PM

算吧
由市場決定吧. 如果多用中文真的會令中大不受歡迎, 這是香港的悲哀, 但各位也要體諒校方的難處吧.

多位論者提及錢賓四先生, 但我相信, 錢先生在新亞的年代是說國語的對不? 如果在尊師重道的角度而言, 可否考慮以老師最擅長的語言教學以達最佳效果?

-- 錢恨少 於 February 01, 2005 04:47 PM

錢穆、唐牟會支持廣東話教學嗎?
錢穆、唐牟?
你估佢地會支持廣東話教學嗎?
牟宗三響香港三十幾年,廣東話都未識講喇?
如果佢d學生同佢講廣東話,你估佢舒唔舒服呢?
唔好表錯情!

-- 人丁 路 於 February 01, 2005 04:51 PM

Please respect fact!
I know that this was not the topic of this discussion, but I am even more interested than this issue now...
I also knew that ‘民國成立,全國上下沒有統一的國語,在一次會議投票選定民國官方語言,廣東話只以一票之微落選。’ And in fact, you can ask ANY academician who studies old Chinese literature, he or she will be able to tell you that Cantonese is much more similar to 古漢語 than the so-called ‘普通’的‘普通話’, which actually is something artificial (although extremely similar to Beijing DIALECT). I haven't made it up. Officially it is stated that PTH (Putonghua) was CREATED basing on northern dialects with Beijing dialect as the major ingredient. So, BASING on 北京話, PTH was set up, then the poor, unlucky Chinese people were forced to learn such a 'mixed language' and to call it your 'mother tongue'. Chinese is my 'first language' or 'first literate' preferable, as Chinese is not exactly a spoken language, but a written literate. But Mandarin is just a TOOL for me to comunicate with all other Chinese with different MOTHER TONGUES, like English for many other people, e.g. Japanese, Koreans, Indians, etc.
Have I made myself clear enough now? In case you still have any doubt, please feel free to contact me or discuss it openly in inmediahk.net.

P.S. In Shanghei, they also use Shanghei dialect in teaching ga!!! (According to reliable informant, who was born and grew up in Shanghei) And according to your logic, what is the official language of HK? Should we all been using ENglish in school (as it is not specific which LANGUAGE of Chinese LITERATE is the other official language)? So, please look around...... For example, Switzerland has very high quality education (only European University outside the UK in high position in the survey of 上海交通大學 is in Switzerland), students use their local dialect to learn until they reach an age of 6 to 10 (depends on their Canton and what language they speak and learn). For example, Zurich Canton requires pupils to start learning English as soon as they start learning German, and only German is one of the four national languages. Before that, they learn and speak Swiss German (or saay Zurcher German) (as explaint before, this dialect is VERY different from the real German, even Germans can't understand Swiss German most of the time)only, even when they go to play school and kindergarten. Do these examples show you the difference of MOTHER TONGUE and official language clearly? And, the policy in CHina is different in every city or province, I suppose.

-- Frostig 於 February 01, 2005 07:18 PM

普通話與廣東話
先說清楚,這個回應有點兒離題。
自從香港回歸以後(或愈接近回歸之時),學普通話的風氣便愈來愈盛,到現在,不知道對語文認識有多少的田北辰等人,更不時主張以普通話取代廣東話,作教學語言。
對於簡體字,很多人知道是「中共產品」(準確來說這說法有誤,但統籠來說是對的),但普通話卻被以為是「正統」的「華語」,大家以之為中心。
其實,普通話是由北方方言整理而來,它本來也只是中國八至十一種方言裡的其中一種。它可上追至宋朝,在元時正式確立。形成的原因,是宋朝多番受蒙族進攻及戰敗,北疆愈向南移,結果北方就愈來愈多非漢族人。非漢族人要說漢語,難免容易丟失較難學的地方,舉兩個最明顯的例子:入聲韻母丟失了(即廣東話「特」dat、「達」daak、「立」laap等字,尾部的p、t、k,外省人學廣東話,這些字也讀得較吃力,例如把「失業」、「濕熱」相混),合口韻(如「淹」jim)也變成開口韻(如「煙」jin)。歷經明、清,保存至民國,再被整理成今日的普通話。
至於廣東話(術語叫「粵語」),則保留了較多的中古(漢隋唐宋)音,因此,雖然有些音變,但大致上可以用古書反切(就是何文匯博士時常推廣的古書注音方法)找出字音。
對我自己學習,並不覺得聆聽粵語和普通話,有甚麼大困難。但如果要以繫傳性作正統,其實粵語比普通話還適合。好像教新詩、五四文學等,同學們懂普通話的話,我不覺得有多大問題,但教唐詩、宋詩,教《岳陽樓記》、《歸去來辭》,如果我是中文老師,我會選擇用粵語,特別是像《聲聲慢》、《滿江紅》一類押入聲韻的作品。
但現在香港社會的粵語、普通話作教學語言之爭,乃是回歸後(以及臨近回歸的後殖民時期)對以北京為中心、置香港本土為邊陲位置的表現,這樣,問題就變得不是以語言學上的發展過程,可以作為人們想要的答案了。

-- 小狼 於 February 01, 2005 08:14 PM

哭中大

-- 小西 於 February 02, 2005 02:56 AM

港式廣東話的語言權利?
Hey, it is so good to have Frostig the linguist here. Your information about Shanghai and Switzerland is very useful. But would you tell us more about when do the Swiss start to turn to learn 'national language' or foreign language like English? And how is the language policy of their universities? I think it is important for the present debate since the argument of 'the effectiveness of mother tongue education' has been circulating for so long by people who advocate 'Chinese education' here. What you tell me is about their study in kindergarten or primary level school (as in HK). But the crucial point here is whether this argument (i.e. mother tongue education is more effective) can be extended to the university level.

事實上,我並不覺得Frostig和小狼談的是離題。

因為如果母語教育的論點在殖民地時代是一種針對殖民政府的民族主義,今天提母語教育就是一種地方主義。因為實質的爭論不是中文的法定地位,而是上課時用廣東話的問題。

過去,爭取中文地位可以訴諸民族主義,今天,訴諸民族主義可能是搬起石頭打自己的腳。

港式的中文廣東話授課,既面對英語的挑戰,也面對國語/普通話的挑戰。

民族主義和地方主義的矛盾全世界都有,但是在香港人人都像要迴避這個問題。歷史上南方語言被邊緣化,香港人要保衛廣東話的語言權利,就要保衛地方的自主性。但香港政府並不是一個保衛香港自主性的政府。教育界亦朝北望,踐踏母語教育為沒有出路的 "方言教育"。

母語教育怎會是理所當然,放在任何一個程度的教育都作為最高原則的呢?全世界除了北京、美國、倫敦等母語就等如國語的地方才說得通。因為他們若非世界中心就是國家中心。否則,地方語言和國語總是有一種拉扯對立,而結果就是某種compromise ,如果compromise 無法達成,每一個族群都不能接受以其他一個族群的語言為強勢國語,就會用外語,印度就是這個情況,星加坡也是這個情況。(所以,葉子的邏輯並不全荒謬,因為北方大陸人來到不想用廣東話,他們感到像去了另一個國家,香港學生又不想用普通話,於是就想用英語.....其實同印度情況一樣)

中大學生會不單要求外國學生來港要先學中文,還要大陸學生來港先學好廣東話。這些要求就肯定超出了新亞元老所可會支持的中文教學。除非香港人都站出來支持愛護這種地方方言,確認它有一種語言權利,否則早晚都會讓位給英語或國語/普通話。

但目前,香港人只會害怕的多,站出來理直氣壯地保衛地方文化和語言的少。他們不是害怕中國化就是害怕全球化,但似乎害怕中國化更多。所以,主流還是追捧英語。

-- 子華 於 February 02, 2005 09:25 AM

左丁山
the captioned guy posted a new article on the subject which is similar in contents but different in tone with that of 喬菁華. I heard that both 左 and 喬 are the pen names of 香樹輝

-- 錢恨少 於 February 02, 2005 12:39 PM

左和喬是同一人
對!人稱新亞護法的,便是此君!萬料不到的,是當年在農圃道受母語教育,口口聲聲支持中國文化的護法,今天會掉轉槍頭,為中大鳴鼓開路!

-- 無為 於 February 02, 2005 02:28 PM

英語授課何所懼
就係這篇:

---------------------------------------
投資銀行大賓架慨嘆本地大學生參加面試時,英文講得唔多掂,輸晒畀外國名校畢業生。又係好難講,人住在一個以英語為日常用語環境,早上一起身就聽英文、講英文,浸三至五年,點都會講英文好過本地大學生。之不過咁,如果純粹以英語水平為聘請新人的標準,請晒哈佛、耶魯、劍橋、牛津美國人、英國人就得啦,面試華人學生做乜。問題係香港投資銀行以中國企業為大市場,以純粹英文人打先鋒,唔多掂,必須請一雙語。小學三年級就去英國留學,唔再學中文香港兒童,將來返香港求職冇咁易。

大賓架聽聞母校推行國際化,部份學系選擇性用英語授課,舉手贊成。大賓架讀歷史出身,中文根底相當唔錯,後來到英國讀研究院幾年,故此英語亦佳,佢話中文大學一貫好處,就係中英雙語並重,畢業生中文水平,平均而言,應該係全港最好,只要在英語上再加強,競爭力將會大增。

所以大賓架對中大學生會反對以英語上課,感到驚奇,因為以中大學生入學成績計,佢地應該唔怕英語上課,讀大學用書、學術論文,幾乎百分之九十五都係英文,就算教授講普通話、廣東話,讀書都難以逃避英文。大賓架讀中大之時,中大學生以中文中學學生為主(當年英中生以入港大為榮),好多人讀經濟學天書Samuelson或者社會學、會計學,幾乎讀到喊,因為每頁查字典查得非常辛苦!唔好理,佢讀四年,一樣掂。今日中大學系以英語教學,相信主要係醫學院、社會科學院,內裏精英中學生眾多,來自英中者不少,聽教授用英語上課,點會唔掂?中大學生會究竟係唔係代表大多數學生意見?

左丁山

-- webmaster 於 February 02, 2005 02:39 PM

代學生會的同學傳話
學生會同學希望將inmedia之內的各種有關國際化、中大更改教學語言的討論剪輯,放上網站或待日後有機會作印刷發表。希望就此,得到各位發言者同意。如果有發言者不同意,請寄電郵到[email protected],學生會同學會尊重發言者的意願。

希望各位繼續留意事件,發表意見,拓闊討論空間和深度。學生會人手嚴重不足,如果有人士願意幫忙,請聯絡他們。在此先謝過各位。

-- t sw 於 February 05, 2005 04:10 PM (按此看回應全文)

轉貼-中大電子快訊:香港中文大學加強學生交流計劃及招收非本地本科生計劃
香港中文大學將加強學生交流計劃及招收非本地本科生計劃,促進校園多元化,以擴闊學生的國際視野,並讓他們接觸不同文化。

香港中文大學將加強學生交流計劃及招收非本地本科生計劃,促進校園多元化,以擴闊學生的國際視野,並讓他們接觸不同文化。藉此,中大的本科教育將更加豐
富,而中大畢業生的就業機會亦會增加。中大將繼續增加學生參加外地交流的機會,並繼續招收內地及海外優秀學生到中大修讀四年制本科課程。

加強與全球180所大學交流

中大在二零零五至零六年度將安排約1,600名本科生到全球二十三個國家,共一百八十所大學參加全年及短期的交流活動,人數佔中大每年所收本科生人數
55%。同時,約有600名外地本科生來中大參加交流活動,佔中大每年收生人數20%。參加學生交流計劃的海外大學包括哈佛大學、耶魯大學、普林斯頓大
學、加州大學柏克萊分校、加州理工、倫敦大學、早稻田大學等。

首間本港大學透過全國普通高校統一招生計劃招生

由今年起,中大透過全國普通高校統一招生計劃,讓內地十三省及四個城市,共四百多萬高中畢業生按其個別志願申請入讀香港中文大學,正如他們申請入讀內地重點大學一樣。

為使更多優秀學生受惠,中大除在原有10省市收生外(即北京、上海、重慶、浙江、江蘇、福建、廣東、湖北、四川及山東),並將在天津、遼寧、湖南、廣西、
陝西、海南及河南收生。這批內地生可在中大修讀人文學科(文科及社會科學)、理科、工科或商科。透過全國普通高校統一招生計劃,中大可取錄全國最優秀的學
生。

招收海外本科生

中大由今年起將積極向歐、美及亞洲各地招生,首年計劃招收約30名學生,在今年九月入讀本科課程,中大計劃在日後逐漸增收海外本科生。中大的優質教育具吸引力,為海外生所歡迎,尤其是對大中華地區有興趣的學生。

非本地生入讀香港中文大學本科課程,每年學費為港幣八萬元。現已有多位贊助人捐贈獎學金,指定為有需要的非本地生提供補助。招收非本地生的學額在未來數年將維持在每年280人。本地生的收生數目將不會減少。中大將增加配套設施及提供足夠支援服務,以配合校園多元化。

二零零五年二月四日

中大電子快訊第 2.5 期

-- 小西 於 February 06, 2005 01:58 AM (按此看回應全文)

Thanks, 子華 !
I am not a linguist (although I dream to be one), but it is the passion
and liking towards languages and cultures which drove me here. I can
only speak Cantonese, English (Windsor accent, if somebody insist to
distinguish 'different English', and I hate American English in fact,
while I am rather good at learning (pretending) the accents of Japanese
English, Malaysian/Singaporean English, and sometimes Indian English
(but there are a lot of variations for Indian English), Putonghua
fluently also I manage to communicate with the locals in French (still
learning, of course)and have been learning German at the same time.
Well, and I have learnt a bit Japanese, and think of self-studying it
at a later stage. A bit unrelated to the discussion, my dream is to
master (at least speak fluently)ten languages by 50 years old. And
learning more languages to me is not because I want to hear people say,
'Wa, you are so great!', but to understand their cultures. In my point
of view (totally from my personal experience), to understand one
culture, you have to reach their language. From the languages, you see
the basic differences of the nature of that nationality. For instance,
German is a VERY VERY rigid laguages. You have to match every word in
a sentence with the correct gender and whether it should be in plural
or singular, otherwise, it is wrong grammatically. It is a horrible
language to learn for foreigners. And from this feature (rigid, full
of rules sometimes without reasons at all) of German (the language),
you can already expect the strict personalities of Germans, and it is
very true as well. They respects and follows rules and are usually
inflexible. And for French, they are renowed as being romantic, and I
found it quite true, as romentic really means 'following the mood',
which is very likely to be the case. French is a language with a very
casual, informal spoken language (ignore the 'accent' thing, please)
while locals basically speak in 'another format' (rather like the case
of Cantonese in my point of view) which is totally incorrect when you
compare it with the 'grammar'. You can disagree with my observation,
but it IS my observation.

Back to the points which 子華 asked about, Switzerland is a very
unique country, with its different local languages in different Cantons
(which would be similar to states or provices in a more familiar system
of us). German, French, Italian and a dying out language Rumantsch are
the four official languages. Each canton has its own rules and
regulations, and even education system (e.g. how many years of primary
school, at what age should the children go to school, from which grade
what languages are taught, etc.) however the 27 cantons in total
consist of only about 7 million citzens (approx. the same as in HK).

'Depending on the commune, children attend nursery school for two or
three years; primary school lasts for 4 years in Basel-Town, 5 years in
canton Aargau and 6 years in the canton of Zurich - and this is all
within an area covered in a one hour train trip. If a family moves to a
new canton, the children may need new school books, the school books
may even be written in another language. They may have to attend school
on Saturday morning or maybe not, the vacations may begin earlier or
later and even if they only move from one commune to another, the
parents may pay half as much - or twice as much - tax as they did
before.

Teachers, doctors or lawyers who move from one canton to another
must obtain official recognition of their qualification in their new
home, since schooling, justice and health are the responsibility of the
cantons, not of central government'
(http://www.swissworld.org/eng/index.html?siteSect=702&sid=4052868&rubric...).

Swiss people from the German-speaking Cantons speak different local
Swiss Germans (dialect of German consisting of some French words, local
words and words from nowhere), Zurich has Zurich German, Bern has Bern
German, and even within one canton the languages vary a little bit. I
will use the example of Zurich Canton, as Zurich German (Zürcher
Deutsch) is the only Swiss German spoken by more than 1 million of
people and come to that, we should also think about why such a
'language of minority' could survive. Anyway, we can come back to that
later. In Zurich, just in less than ten years ago (don't know
exactly), they changed the second laguage (compulsory in school) from
French to English. For pupils in Zurich, they all start with Swiss
German until they reach the age of 5 or six, when they get into primary
school (except in international schools, which are always different
from the local schools in any part of the world). Since then, pupils
learn German (the proper German, which we call High German (Hoch
Deutsch) in German) Swiss German. It should be like we learn Chinese
in Cantonese. This goes on forever, until they finish their study.
And for English, which has replaced French to be the second laguage,
students also start learning at soon as they start learning German. Of
course, the result of this new system is not very clearly seen by now,
but people will see how good or bad it works in the future. In saying
that English is the second laguage, French is not as important as
before, when students needed to learn French at first, until perhaps in
secondary school they started learning English as well. This system
didn't work out, as people don't speak good French after all the
learning (Swiss don't necessarily travel to the other part of
Switzerland, so they have no opportunities to practice their French)
and their English is not good enough for most people. But the main
point to note here is that, most of them write German and speak (if
they want to) German well. German is basically not their mother
tongue, but Swiss German is. What's the problem learning with one's
mother tongue? Promoting second language is not to abandon one's
mother tongue, but to establish a better system and to start learning a
language early enough. If you need more information about different
countries in Europe about language education, I can collect a bit more
information and to discuss about them later.

And in Shanghei, Putonghua and Shanghei dialect are both very
common, but I have heard some classmates from Shanghei telling me that
in some schools (primary and scondary), Putonghua is not even taught,
not to mention to be used as the medium of instruction. And, he told
me that, for that reason, he happened to know some local Shanghei
students who don't speak Putonghua at all! Of course, I think that is
not very good, as Putonghua is really a useful tool in communications.
Putonghua should be taught, as why English should be, and as early as
possible witha GOOD SYSTEM. The reason why I pointed that out was that
somebody trying to argue that schools in Shanghei also used Putonghua
as the medium of instruction, but I believed it was not correct.

One point I wanted to add to the current
discussion is the growing importance of Cantonese which people usually
ignore. When people say that 'Mandarin is becoming more and more
important', who cares about our useful Cantonese? It is an interesting
fact, as Hong Kong people has been reaching more and more places (being
more and more influencial) by migration, studying and working abroad,
more and more Chinese (because it is not as difficult to learn
Cantonese for other Chinese than total foreigners) can now understand
Cantonese and some starts to speak after just one or two years. The
strong Cantonese speaking power (some part due to the movies, TV series
and pop songs) has spread also to practically nearly all Chinese
communities in different parts of the world. Most Malaysian and
Singaporean Chinese speak Cantonese, more or less, and Taiwan people
see the ability of speaking Cantonese something superior (esp. for the
younger generation). Use of Cantonese is not fading, but growing. You
can only feel this strong trend once you are outside of Hong Kong,
where more and more people speaks Cantonese not accurately
(pronunciation, use of words, etc). Why we ourselves don't treasure
our own language while many others do? Why we try to abandon our good
language trying to adopt the others' cultures? I believe, ‘知己知彼﹐百戰百勝’,
knowing more languages is good, but to learn our own language well
first.
Hope this is not too long. I hate reading long long long responses as well.

-- Frostig 於 February 07, 2005 09:26 PM (按此看回應全文 | delete)

Missed one point
In India, there is not ONE SINGLE language, but Chinese is one unified
language (by 秦始皇?) with many dialects, but we write the same words
(except the minor differences between traditional and simplified
Chinese), so we shouldn't use the example of India to describe the
situation in HK. I forgot who used such an example, just want to point
this difference out.

-- Frostig 於 February 07, 2005 09:31 PM (按此看回應全文)

問題還是一樣........
多謝Frostig的回應,你舉蘇黎世的
情況,我想可不可以說德語 (Hoch Deutsch) 是他們的國語,Swiss German 是他們的母語?他們雖學國語,也學外語
(英語或法語) ,但沒有以英語或法語上大學。而國語和母語是並行的,上大學也是母語國語並用。有沒有理解錯?

如果我的理解沒錯,那我想瑞士的例子的確像上海。不過還是要問清楚,究竟Swiss German和 High German 的差別有多大?北京人不學上海話是無法聽懂上海話的,但懂High German 的人可以上只講 Swiss German的人的課嗎?

香港 (中大) 的情況在於,北京來的人聽不到廣東話,母語教學在講課這方面就排斥了北京來的人。怎麼辦?

印度有多種語言,無法統一,所以沒有印度國語,只有用英語。中國情況如何呢?對,中國有漢字,但漢字只是一種書寫文字,在古代的作用正如西方的拉丁
文,拉丁文的統一作用(正如漢字的統一作用)僅只提供書寫,語音就極不相同。而如果說漢字是一以貫之的語言,就要說清楚所謂
語言的定義。文言文是漢字書寫的,但現代中國人讀文言文,就像讀外文一樣難。現代白話中文是五四運動的產物,初期聲稱
"我手寫我口",學足歐洲各地的國語運動,但係只係將北京話變成國語。所以北京話點可以作為香港母語呢?

所以,還是要搞清楚,究竟維護中大傳統,是維護漢語中文,還是維護母語教學?

現在是北京同學來香港,聽不懂廣東話,所以支持轉用英語,但在Zurich,有沒有只會說High German的人來,叫人轉 用high
German,不要再講他們聽不懂的Swiss German呢?他們又會不會叫大學,轉用English or French呢?

上海的母語教學,可能是低年級的政策,但我以為大學裏如果有這情況,應該不是國家政策,因為大學分配是統一辦理,即理論上所有大學都有義務收全國派
送的學生,所以一定用國語,但一般非重點大學,因為沒有中國外地來的學生,所以 "下有對策" ,索性講上海話,不是有甚麼母語政策。

情況和香港一樣,大家在沒有其他外地人的情況下就講廣東話。問題在於中大不甘作非重點大學,要全國招生,所以廣東方言面對挑戰。 "要國語還是不要?不要就要英語。"---雖然這個好像不是今日討論的問題,但這難道不是問題背後的真問題嗎?為甚麼覺得離題呢?

-- 子華 於 February 07, 2005 11:25 PM (按此看回應全文 )

子華 , thanks for your quick response!
I am thankful that you DID spend time reading what I wrote (typed?). I
didn't expect anybody to read it through as it was really too
long......

So, after your briefing, I think the situation is really quite
similar to the case of HK. In Zurich, the most famous university ETH
(can't remember the full name now, may be able to add back later),
which is a polytechnic university (categorised by subjects studied
there) uses mainly German to teach although they have quite a number of
foreign students studying there. They have also provided high quality
German classes for those foreign students. One of my friend, who is
studying his PhD there didn't know one single word in German before he
came from China.
A real international school shouldn't aim at earning money. For this
friend of mine. He has obtained both his Bachelor and Masters degree
in PRC, then he worked for a while before he applied for this PhD study
here in CH (Switzerland). In fact, he was invited to have the
interview, the school didn't only help him apply for the visa, but also
paid for his airticket and accommodation for that interview. The main
reason behind is that, they want the BEST students from anywhere in the
world, which are not the richest students. He has been employed in a
'company' working for a project in his research, and he has got paid
for an allowance in addition to the school fee (which is very low in
fact), which is rather generous, as it is enough for both him and his
wife (who is not entitled to work in CH), even can send some money back
home once a few months (not much, but would be quite good for their
family). So, 'internationalisation' doesn't mean using English, and
also doesn't mean earning more money.

So, back to the language discussion. I don't think that the focus
should be on whether CU should use Mandarin or English as the medium of
instructions. It is simply seen that using local language (Japanese in
Tokyo University, German in ETH) does not make a university not
recognised worldwide. Using the example of my friend again, he found
it very difficult to understand the lessons, but he has never complaint
about it! It is because he understands that
(1) if he learns one more language, it is his own benefit;
(2) it is the condition given, and he had the choice to come or not before he is here;
(3) learning in a foreign country is not only going abraod to study the
same thing as if studied in your own country, but also the local
culture.
One can broaden one's horizon by experiencing the others' cultures. In
fact, he always said that what was taught in class was something he
knew, what made it difficult was the language only.

For the case of ETH, I would say that most students still
communicate in Swiss German, although all written materials are in High
German (written Swiss German doesn't really exist, just like Cantonese,
you can only write something grammatically not correct if you try to
write Cantonese), but communications between international students are
usually in English, except sometimes French for students from other
parts of CH. If they can be successful, why Hong Kong can't continue
its unique Cantonese speaking environment in CUHK?

P.S. As mentioned in earlier response,
Swiss usually understand High German (as they learn to write in the
real German), while even Germans (the people) would find it very
difficult to know what the Swiss are talking about in Swiss German.

-- Frostig 於 February 08, 2005 01:02 AM (按此看回應全文)

子華, I don't know why my reply to you was lost!
I have tried to answer some questions 子華 asked, but didn't know what
had happened before I found that my post was lost. Anyway, will try to
reply again asap (busy at work right now, please forgive me!).

-- Frostig 於 February 09, 2005 07:03 PM (按此看回應全文 )

勞煩把之後的討論貼到新的貼子, Many thanks!!
frostig兄:

由於主頁的貼文三日便會out,我已把這個貼子重貼了三次(包括你跟子華兄之前的討論)。

勞煩把之後的討論貼到新的貼子, Many thanks!!

-- 小西 於 February 10, 2005 12:59 AM (按此看回應全文)

Thanks, 小西 !
I see. Thank you so much! And sorry for bringing you trouble.
In fact, I just want to know where I should post my new comments then? I couldn't find the correct post.

P.S. By the way, I am a female, and I
would be happy to be called 妹 than 姐, if you would like to add this
kind of 稱呼 at the end......
Guess you must be a male then, if you predominantly think of brothers without any doubt, hahaha!

-- Frostig 於 February 10, 2005 06:38 PM (按此看回應全文)