停止濫殺,反對戰爭!stop the war machine! (不斷更新)

你估以色列是迫不得已才還擊嗎?錯晒!(George Monbiot撰,阿野節譯)

換言之,七月十二日真主黨雖然真是發出了第一輪攻擊,但這輪炮火只是雙方六年來長時期毛手毛腳的其中一個小節。下一問題是,為甚麼以色列這次的反應與這六年來的情況有如此差別?答案是,以色列這回趟並不是回應七月十二日真主黨的行動,這輪大規模的攻擊是早有預謀的。

我失語但我不膽怯——民間記者與反戰(阿野)

我其實想說的是當場我有一種失語的感覺。忽然之間找說不到要說的話的內容、要說的原因和期望說完有甚麼效果。民間記者參與反對以色列濫炸黎巴嫩,不容易抓
住一個很穩固的坐標。對事情認識的深淺永遠都是高處未算高,以至連帶的感性投入都時刻要自省逼自己回答究竟有沒有矯情的成份。

兩篇關於以黎局勢的重要評論(朱迪編按)

有病的媒體:怎麼香港沒有反戰?(阿藹)

媒體發揮了界定社會氣質的作用,而這些主流媒體,放棄了展示本地人反戰人道的氣質。也許是民建聯發動的,大家都會爭相地報導。因為黨性紅旗已取代了專業判斷,營造社會人道氣質的堅持?有病的媒體,製造有病的社會,比沙士更可怕。

側寫香港最大型的反以色列示威﹝夾雜着大堆胡言亂語﹞(朱迪)

如果你問我老細,喂你「車」咗十幾年以巴衝突,咁你到底知唔知發生緊乜野樹?佢係答唔到你的。但電台和電視台的新聞時段夠多,所以見到以巴新聞或者伊拉克爆炸都會當寶,馬上寫馬上出,因為易「車」,在電台報兩節,夠了,稿子就扔進垃圾筒。

索命凶鈴:你間屋即將被轟炸(Conal Urquhart撰,阿野譯)

那是一把聽來相當友善的聲音:「嗨,我是danny,以色列軍方情報組的官員。一小時內,我們將要把你家炸個灰飛煙滅。」

「每個公民都是軍人」以色列總參謀部見聞(奧列格.奧德諾連科)

以色列國防軍總參謀部的官員這樣概括以色列兵役制的好處:「每個以色列公民都是軍人,只不過每年有11個月在休假。」

The body of Christ in Lebanon (Jim Wallis)

Like many of you, I have been glued to CNN and other cable news
channels and feeling my heart broken by the vivid scenes of war's
devastation and human suffering in the Middle East. We mourn this
violence and, habitually, pray for peace. But what does that mean?

原來人真的可以惡到這種地步(朱迪)

但大家請留意,賴斯期盼的「急切和持久的和平」,並不等於馬上停火;相反美國希望以色列繼續炸下去,因為必須鏟除真主黨這個威脅的源頭、以及收拾伊朗和敘利亞兩個在背後撐腰的國家。

以色列砲轟黎巴嫩,幫了真主黨(Dahr Jamail撰,葉蔭聰譯)

我們幾乎不能相信,戰爭會重臨。我們以為,1990年已經結束,我相信,擄走以色列士兵是錯的,但是,以色列這樣巨大的反擊,殘害所有黎巴嫩人,是完全不合理的,這簡直就是瘋狂。

再來一次反戰示威好嗎?

活動內容:黎巴嫰朋友到場發言、朱迪阿藹教你點搵國際新聞、長毛發言、遊行(愛丁堡廣場=>金鐘=>花園道美國領事館)…

祝願:全球團結打倒戰爭機器(領男)

阿迪緊張起來了,自星期六坐立不安,原來聯絡人,也是召集人,編輯們怕他力不從心,於是又召集了阿野當另一位聯絡人,阿野在不知情的情況下被召集來當召集人,而昨天的行動在沒有主動聯絡(除了電郵)的情況下,有三十人在地鐵站出現,我就跟他們開玩笑:這次行動的召集人其實不知道自己是召集人,又有是被召集來當召集人,在沒有打過什麼電話的情況下,也不知道為何能召集幾十人出來參加抗議行動……

stop the war machine!24.7 野貓行動(阿野)

據阿藹說,上了花園道到了美國領事館,他們還成身汗的對我們說:「已按排領事館方面派員來接信了。」我們沒打算交甚麼信給老美的人,阿藹回話便說,「我們沒有信給他們」。警察竟說「那麼即刻寫吧!」警察你代替我們抗議好嗎?我們隨即拿出美國和以色列的國旗,在領事館的門外一把火焚掉了。這幫人是來表達這幫人自己的意見的,不習慣吃套餐,名為例行公事的機器或系統請大可收起。

『敢放炸彈,唔敢接信,我X!』──記7.24抗議以色列入侵黎巴嫩遊行(林輝fred)

遊行的朋友約有三十人,算是讓我們喜出望外。大伙兒在海富中心地下出口靜坐等待,一邊擊打樂器,一邊揮舞畫上了巨大和平標誌的大旗;同時亦派發單張予路過的市民,以大聲公表明我們抗議以色列以士兵被真主當俘虜為由,向黎巴嫩發動襲擊,同時使無辜的平民遭到傷害。

黎巴嫰大戰略(沈旭暉)

以色列和真主黨之戰,是近年中東最迷離的衝突。表面上,它由偶發事件引起,加上美國支持以色列,以方對哈馬斯殺雞儆猴,才令戰事迅速擴大。但單靠偶發理論,解釋不了五大遠因……

七月二十四日,一起到以色列領事館抗議!(葉蔭聰)

作為國際社會的一份子,我們有責任為和平出一分力,我們一群朋友決定發起抗議。

以軍入侵黎巴嫩: War is peace 的悖論(阿藹)

從7月12至15日,以軍於黎巴嫩境內一共有1350次空襲。究竟炸毀黎巴嫩機場、橋樑、油站和高速公路,如何擊毀恐怖份子?如何解放黎巴嫩的人民?事實上,以色列以導彈炸毀大量的基礎建設,已違反聯合國公約的集體懲罰(Collective punishment)的戰爭暴行。

願黎巴嫩人有一夜安眠(朱迪)

二十三年過去,以色列十倍奉還的報復心一點沒改變,過去十年多少次為了報復自殺式襲擊血洗西岸和加沙?但過度的暴力帶來了什麼?沒錯國家是固若金湯,可是敵人總是一代一代地冒出來﹝巴解被逼走後,真主黨就在伊朗和敘利亞的支持下壯大﹞,襲擊的方式更是層出不窮﹝真主黨的火箭這次擊中以軍軍艦和海法市,令以色列大為震驚﹞,以色列人的不安感只有增,不會減。

22/7 報摘:以色列的張狂 (李智良)

…Yes, Israel has the right to defend itself, but not by destroying another country.…… Hezbollah is, of course, a problem but Israel is the bigger problem as the occupier of the Arab land. If occupation is vacated, there will be no more of such "problem" Hezbollah and Hamas as resistance groups(terrorist in the eyes of Israel and the western world) will disappear.


反對以色列政府以襲黎巴嫩內鬥爭權

當年前總理沙朗於耶路撒冷宣稱「耶路撒冷是以色列領土」,挑釁巴勒斯坦人,引起大暴動,令以色列軍隊鎮壓。

結果一直倡以巴和平的執政工黨倒台,沙朗的右翼利富德集團執政。

幾年以後,沙朗頂不住現實壓力,方重回被刺殺的工黨總理拉賓所倡的,從加沙撤出,然而無數無辜的巴勒斯坦平民已被殺。

現在沙朗性命垂危,新總理權力未固,於是重施故技,籍襲黎巴嫩爭取國內極右勢力支持,貪婪成性。

中國有陳水扁,美國有布殊,中東有奧爾默特!

Lebanon - Israel, Lebanon and Gaza Strip: UN to take immediate a

From the International Commission of Jurists

Impunity & Reparations - Newsroom
21st July 2006

Following the latest escalation of Israeli air raids and military incursions into Lebanon that have dramatically impacted on the lives of hundreds of thousands of civilians, the International Commission of Jurists (ICJ) has called today on the UN to take immediate action to protect the civilian population in Lebanon, as well as in the Gaza Strip.

"The widespread lethal impact of the Israeli armed operations on Lebanese civilians and infrastructure has to stop immediately", said Mr Federico Andreu-Guzman, deputy Secretary-General of the ICJ. The organization is extremely concerned by the apathy of the international community and the inactivity of key governments toward the ongoing Israeli military actions in Lebanon as well as in Gaza, and the widespread killings and suffering of people. The ICJ calls on the Security Council - or the General Assembly if the Security Council is unable to come to an agreement - to take immediate and effective measures to stop the military escalation in which civilians have already paid a huge price. "Such measures may include the dispatch of a new UN multinational force or a drastic strengthening of the mandate of UNFIL, and a substantive enlargement of its personnel", added Mr Andreu-Guzman. Time is of the essence, and any further procrastination by the international community and the UN would be irresponsible.

For the past eight days and nights, the Israeli air forces have destroyed countless civilian buildings, infrastructure and means of transportation in operations that have killed more 300 people - most of them civilians - and wrecked havoc on Lebanese cities, harbours, airports and other infrastructure, leading to the displacement of more than half a million people. Appalled by the impact of the ruthless military operations, the ICJ recalls that Israel has to unconditionally respect the lives and security of civilians and abide by the Geneva Conventions to which it is a party. Under the law of war, intentional attacks against the civilian population as such or against civilians not taking direct part in hostilities, as well as the extensive destruction of property not justified by military necessity, constitute war crimes. The wanton destruction of the Beirut airport and civilian aircrafts are blatant examples of these destructions. Similarly, the bombing of undefended towns, villages and dwellings that are not military objectives, as well as the intentional attacks that will knowingly cause incidental loss of life or injury to civilians also constitute war crimes for which individuals can be held criminally responsible.

"While Israel has a legitimate right to defend itself against hostage-taking and the launching of rockets by the Hezbollah over Israeli territory, this right is not unlimited and is subject to the restrictions of international law," said Mr Andreu-Guzman. "Indeed, the disproportionate and indiscriminate reactions of the Israeli military are reprisals against the civilian population and thus amount to collective punishment. Collective punishments constitute a war crime under international law", added Mr Andreu-Guzman.

For its part, the Hezbollah has fired rockets on Northern Israeli towns, killing 15 civilians to date and wounding dozens of others, while damaging or destroying houses. The ICJ recalls that members of armed groups also have to fully abide by the Geneva Conventions, which prohibit targeting civilians. As for the capturing of two Israeli soldiers by Hezbollah last week, under international law, enemy combatants held prisoners by the other party should be granted prisoner-of-war status in accordance with the III Geneva Convention. The taking of hostages is strictly forbidden by international law and thus constitutes a war crime.

While international attention is focused on Israeli army attacks in Lebanon, the Israeli army has continued its air and land operations in the Gaza Strip, reportedly killing members of armed groups but also killing and wounding more than 50 people such as during the latest operation in Mughazi camp. Armed members of Hamas also have to fully abide by the Geneva Conventions and should stop firing rockets at civilian areas.

The ICJ calls on Israel and on armed groups to immediately stop targeting civilians and fully respect international humanitarian law.

******************************************

This is important. If anyone could roughly translate this into Chinese.

I don't know where to put this, but I think it is important to share information.

Anyone want to comment, are welcome to do so. With exception to the Foul-mouth-thing-Frostig.

Wait... 中國有陳水扁?

中國有陳水扁?

Please note there, 陳水扁 is not in 中國.

陳水扁

台灣也是中國的一部份吧﹖

根本是反台反猶主義

姑勿論陳水扁是否中國人。「中國有陳水扁,美國有布殊,中東有奧爾默特!」是一種排台排猶的不成比例的過份態度。

這些名字表面上是一些投機政客,但我們應了解整體內容。

陳水扁是很投機的政客,他能當選是因為他能掌握別人的論述採為己用,他有爭議也是因為他採用了什麼論述。然而,陳水扁只是不為在反對派的觀迎,他的做法對台灣以外沒有做過任何壞事。他為台灣爭取國際代表及負責應有國際責任,按其個人論述而言,或按左翼國際民主論述而言,都是理所當然,理之所在,是作為台灣事實代表所該做的事,豈可計算外國(包括中國)是否打算以戰爭作為報復之手段?我們可不認同陳水扁採用的主張,但不可把陳水扁打成好戰份事,籍此說增強自己的說服力。這不是隱隱的恐台,排台主義嗎?我們要批評,也應該學習以適當的論述評論台獨主張。

奧爾默特事實上非常溫和的政客,我們要批評他,要連帶他上任後,甚至連帶他與沙龍在位合作時的政治行為作整體地觀察。奧爾默特能割讓以色列佔領的地方換取和平,我們用良心自問,中國人能否割讓中國未佔領過的台灣換取和平?用「需要穩住權力爭取極右派」來形容現時的奧爾默特,情況與批評陳水扁「好戰」更為明顯地是排猶。

作者 Shung 也許以為布希是好戰已是無需說明的「常識」而不必多言,這個當然不是事實。不過,這個「常識」既然為國際主流所採用,我亦尊重作者的立場。作者既然無舉事例證明這項常識,我亦不予反駁(事實上我對他有另一種反感,這亦令我不方便代他反駁)。

有一點我必須要說明,陳水扁,布希和奧爾默特都經人民合法授權(這點是三人的唯一共同之處),我們不要看扁這個人民智慧,把他們婑化為鬧劇,這個無知想法只反映我們對台灣,對美國,對以色列的不尊重。我們不要因為不理解別國平民的投票行為,就認定那些國民低能,反以為那些民族應該消失。

台灣也是中國的一部份?

Haha, it depends.

Anyway, it is just really superficial to discuss this problem in THIS direction. For me, we have discussed about the possible (or impossible?) merging of 'People's Republic of China' and 'Republic of China' in another post, so there is no need to talk about it seriously here under this post.
I just think McDonald's has his points, although I understand that not everybody would agree totally with him.

連線

台灣朋友的反戰網摘:
http://blog.yam.com/anarch/archives/1934077.html

以暴易暴

在inmedia的大多數朋友也是一面倒的反對以色列出兵黎巴嫩﹐在這件事上我的立場原本未決定﹐不過在今天新聞﹐看見了真主黨在美國槍殺猶太人﹐以及發射長程火箭攻擊以色列國土後﹐我作出了立場上的選擇。我認為以色列有權出兵自衛﹐當然在手法誤殺平民有批評的地方﹐但在道德上在基本生存受威協的前題下﹐以色列作出保護其國民的軍事行動也是無可非議的。

以色列不可怕﹐畢竟他們還是講道理﹐只要保證了自身安全﹐就不會作出暴力行為。反之真主黨可怕的地方﹐在於他們因為所信宗教的非理性﹐根本沒有道理可言﹐連談判的餘地也沒有。對付這些蠻不講理的人﹐以暴易暴是沒有辨法中的唯一辨法﹐除非想坐以待弊。

當然和平主義者會說﹐以暴易暴不好﹐用愛心化解紛爭才是正道。可是對真主黨申出和平之手有用嗎﹖不要自己欺騙自己了﹐一天極端回教徒被不消滅(不論是用武力還是感化還是兩管齊下)﹐ 一天中東也不會有和平。

目瞪口呆

樓上的傢伙是故意語出驚人搏取reply嗎?
嗯,希望他千萬別reply我。

hevangel似乎是過份偏向猶太人。說真主黨極端,猶太主義者何嘗不是!

當以色列發動戰爭,平民受到襲擊幾乎是必然的。所以現在是要立即停止戰爭。

Casus belli 從來就是大爭議

大家都應該知道 "無 casus belli" 在實踐上是殘忍的世界,不容許 casus belli 存在,其作用與大自然相比,是禁止殺人鯨與鯊魚橫行,但卻容許海豚用更殘忍更有組織的方法攻擊弱小。

我原本唔係好想再此戰爭中發言,但係有些發言情況太無譜我還是忍不住手。一是反猶主義在左派的產生,我上文已經說出一些擔憂。二是 casus belli 的問題,war is war, destruction is destruction, 兩者必須分開討論。大家應該知道遊擊隊虐待平民的方法層出不窮,這些非正式戰鬥隊伍對平民的傷害,是遠遠大於正式戰爭中的平民死傷的,為何我們還要堅持把 casus belli (law OF war) 與 humanitarian law (law IN war) 混為一談呢?用了這些含混的標準,我們發現美國比蘇丹更邪惡,因為蘇丹對傳媒對個人自由比美國更辛毒。我們發現以色列比俄國更邪惡,因為俄國更有效率地操控公民社會,本站甚至特定說明今年聖彼得堡「反G8」的困難,不知底裡的人卻以為,G8在美國舉辦比在俄國舉辦更邪惡。我們發現中國是最和平的國家,因為中國每一次戰爭都只是「內政」,絕無 casus belli 的問題。

戰爭根本區分國內與國外,在國內戰爭不管只是抓個小偷也應該需要 casus belli,而 casus belli 標準應與誇國戰爭相同,不應出現國內可發動而誇國不可發動的戰爭,不應出現國內戰爭的人道監察與誇國戰爭不同。

其實本站發了這麼多 "zero casus belli" 為主張的文章,期望無人回應不是不切實際嗎?與大眾想法不一,支持以色列有 casus belli,就是「意語出驚人搏取reply」嗎?

沒有偏坦

我對猶太教的原教旨主義也看不過眼﹐不明白他們為什麼老是不肯和巴人分耶路撒冷﹐一人分一半咪大家開心囉。為什麼要執著幾千年前的一個承諾﹖同樣的極端猶太教者不滅﹐中東也是沒有和平。不過今次以色列出兵﹐可以說是某政客撈政治本錢﹐但不可以說是極端猶太教在作祟吧﹖以色列國內民意大多支持出兵啊。

另外麥當勞說起海豚和鯨魚﹐我上星期剛剛去了Tofino出海看野生鯨魚和海豚。雖然有點離題﹐不過我倒想起了保育的問題。我是絕對支持保護鯨魚和海豚的。那一定有人會問﹐新界老牛同鯨魚海豚有分別嗎﹖分別就可大了﹐一。鯨魚海豚真的很可愛。二﹐因為可愛所以可以帶來可觀旅遊收入。三﹐物們是涉臨絕種動物﹐有保護的價值。四﹐我深信鯨魚海豚有像人類的靈性﹐因此物們某程度上應該享有人類的保護。

恐怖精靈

hevangel

以暴易暴是毫無意義的事情

建議你該去看布希亞的「恐怖精靈」這本書

to:衛紅

有沒有該書和作者的英文名稱﹖

我自己也不太滿意以暴易暴這個答案。可是面對真主黨﹐一個宣稱要死殺你的敵人﹐並真的付諸以行﹐還有比以武力保衛自己更好的方法嗎﹖

to : 麥當勞

i think your assertion " ... 支持以色列有 casus belli,就是「意語出驚人搏取reply」嗎?" is a misleading rhetoric ..

1. i don't think readers here object to the claim that 以色列有 casus belli ... the real issue here is : ok, so you have casus belli, now what ??? ... do you think that once you have casus belli, you can then march into another country, kill them ALL, innocent or not, to achieve your goal of rooting out all future casus belli, so to speak ???

that is why there has once been the discussion on the disproportinate use of force by the israeli war machine ... just by a simple count on the dead bodies, and i am sure you will see this point ...

2. i'd even say hevangel's post on 以暴易暴 is worse than 語出驚人 ... it is warmonger's nonsense ... read these 3 sentences :

a. 以色列不可怕﹐畢竟他們還是講道理﹐只要保證了自身安全﹐就不會作出暴力行為。

以色列講道理 ??? ... again, count the dead bodies and see it for yourself the havoc they wreck on lebanon in the current war ...

b. 對付這些蠻不講理的人﹐以暴易暴是沒有辨法中的唯一辨法﹐除非想坐以待弊。

violence begets violence ... there will be no end to violence if you play by that stupid rule of 以暴易暴 ...

c. 不要自己欺騙自己了﹐一天極端回教徒被不消滅(不論是用武力還是感化還是兩管齊下)﹐ 一天中東也不會有和平。

yes, hevangel smartly (or cunningly !) played with two hands (不論是用武力還是感化還是兩管齊下), but his basic premise is still 消滅極端回教徒 which can be so much a convenient excuse to wage war ...

all these statements are senseless statements ... describing them as 語出驚人 is already a flowery flattery ... their real character is a warmonger's speech ...

有像人類的靈性的動物

first and foremost, sorry, off topic ...

wanna comment on this statement : "我深信鯨魚海豚有像人類的靈性﹐因此物們某程度上應該享有人類的保護。"

1. there have been stories about 牛 kneeling down and shedding tears in slaughter house and many people believe that 牛 有像人類的靈性 ... so, they 某程度上應該享有人類的保護 ...

2. 某程度上應該享有人類的保護 -- 某程度 is to what 程度 ??? ... when they are still young, still capable of bringing in tourism dollars ??? ... so when they are old, when they can't bring in tourism dollars, they should be exterminated ???

3. In Genesis 1:9 - 25 (King James version), God ends the days by seeing that it was good ... everything living on the earth, and in the waters, are good ... they all have 保育的價值 ...

but then there is no such "God saw that it was good" in the 6th day when we were created ... so maybe it is us, who do all so many stupid things, like to wage war, to argue 老牛 has no 保育的價值, that don't have any 保育的價值 ...

if i can't convince you on a rational ground, go home and read your bible ...

to: Cliff, re: war, bible, etc

First of all, why I do have to go home and read the Bible? I don't literally belive the Bible is the truth. Actually, I think the Bible is just a work of man, a very ancient book with some good old wisdom, that's all.

There is a big difference between the intelligence of dolphins and cows. Dolphins are senital beings like apes but cows are not. It is has a clear definition in science. (I think I mispell "senital" here, but I just can't remember the correct spelling. If you don't understand what I am talking about, please ask me to clarify) To what extend dolphins and whales should be protected? I guess to the extend they don't start killing human and try to exterminate us.

I also condem Israel's killing of innocent people. What I am saying is that it is OK to match into another country as long as you don't kill innocent people or at least not intended to. Isreal's air raid has killed so many people is exactly why it take me so long to pick a side. If Isreal just send in speical force, assassinate the terrorists, blow up rocket storages with minimal causalities. I would speak up long time ago.

Violence beget violence, but sometimes violence is the only way to stop violence. Plese, try to reason with serial killers. The question is whehter we should use violence or not, it is rather how much violence should we use.

Now, please apply yoor co-exist worldview to extermist muslim, see how far can you reason yourself into it. (Remember, extermist muslim will use violence to turn the world into all muslim as stated in their jihad. Are you prepare to convert to muslim and have 4 wives?)

真的很可愛???

WHO decides what is cute, lovely and adorable or not? YOU?!?!?!

For me, God made us all, and we are all children of God, no wonder we are 'adorable' or not, humans alike, animals alike......

some more words .......... to hevangel and frostig

hevangel,

read this just now :

QANA, Lebanon - Israeli missiles hit several buildings in a southern Lebanon village as people slept Sunday, killing at least 56, most of them children, in the deadliest attack in 19 days of fighting. Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert expressed "great sorrow" for the airstrikes but blamed Hezbollah guerrillas for using the area to launch rockets at Israel, and said he would not halt the army's operation.

(http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060730/ap_on_re_mi_ea/lebanon_israel)

and this reminds me of 2 things ...

1. forgot who told me this ... when 2 people fight, who is the more courageous one, the one who keeps fighting till both are badly hurt or even dead, or the one who first puts down his weapon and seeks a resolution or reconciliation ???

2. think Yitzhak Rabin said this : i can forgive you for killing me or even my son but i can never forgive you for telling your son to kill my son ...

violence begets violence !!!

frostig, you asked : WHO decides what is cute, lovely and adorable or not? YOU?!?!?!

beauty is in the eye of beholder ... so when i say one is cute, lovely and adorable, it is me who decide that she is cute, lovely and adorable ... that is all :) ...

Sorry, Cliff, thanks but...

I was trying to ask hevangel, in fact, for he thought those 'lovable animals' meant more than the others (i.e. for him, the 'lovely' dolphins mean more the old cows).

Anyway, Bible is only for those who believe in it, who believe in it. Just it is what we think, but some people could ignore the validity of it. God told us to govern the land, but not to kill the others as we like......

to : frostig

i know your question was to hevangel ... i did it on purpose to use your post to sidetrack the discussion :) to add a bit of fun and twist to the conversation ...

hevangel said 鯨魚海豚真的很可愛 and if you read the 1st paragraph of this post

http://www.inmediahk.net/comments/view-comment?comment%5fid=137296&retur...

i bet you will see that your God argument won't work ...

it is all in hevangel's eyes that 鯨魚海豚真的很可愛 ... problem is what happens when they are not 真的很可愛 any more, say, when they are old ???

To: frostig, Re: cutness

Your qeustion falls into the same catagory on beauty and ugly. First, we have to agree whether there is a criteria of being cute, then agree on what is the criteria and the last step to examine do dolphins match those criteria is quite straigh forward. BTW, even an old dolphin, old whale is very cute, don't you think so?

Actually, in the Bible, God didn't say all animals are equally good, some of them are unclean. :)

to: Cliff, re: violence

In the case of when 2 people fight, who is the more courageous one, the one who keeps fighting till both are badly hurt or even dead, or the one who first puts down his weapon and seeks a resolution or reconciliation. Don't know. All I know is the first one to put down this weapon is very likely to be killed if his opponent doesn't think like him. In fact, Israel had put down the weapon many times, but each time the terrorist keep fighting. What else can Israel do other than fight back?

Have you able to reason yourself to co-exist with extermist muslim yet? I am really interested to see the solution if there is one. I don't think there is a solution other than violence in this case, but I am happy to accept one if there is real alternative, not just empty talks.

Differences

Different people have different interpretation on Bible and different understandings, I have no doubt.

Different people have different tastes and different judgments on what is 'pretty, ugly or cute'.

to : hevangel on religious extremism

HA ha ! hevangel, you must have thought you got the perfect counter-punch on asking me how i'd live, or co-exist, with religious extremism ...

good point and good try ... i don't want to just brush this aside but there is no easy answer to this situation ...

in a sense, i am already living with some sort of exremism here in toronto ... don't you know that toronto busted a terrorist cell not long ago ?!

talk is cheap so instead of theorizing everything and, like you said, "reasoning" myself to co-exist with religious extremism, we should walk the talk ...

here is what i'd do :

1. if they break the law, call the police ... if they fire rockets on you, call the police ... if they kidnap your loved ones, call the police ... i just used 'call the police', instead of 'call the army', 3 times for the following reasons :

a. there are already laws out there to prosecute these criminal acts ...

b. calling the police reduces the chance of the use of disproportionate force, hence protecting innocent by-standers ...

c. calling the police means the case will be tried in court and the trial, in most advanced countries, will be an open process subject to public scrutiny ...

2. when no foul act is commited, be open, talk to them, understand them, ensure a 2-way communication, help them ... hopefully, this will help nip religious extremism in the bud ...

a. i did talk to a palestinian before and now i understand how tough it is to have a living even in their own homeland ...

b. i also did talk to a muslin before and questioned him why one would want to carry out a suicide bombing mission ...

the lesson i learnt from talking to these people is that at the end of the day, when their survival is not threatened, they are just normal people, like you and me, who want to have a living, a family, seeing their kids grow up, go to school, seeing themselves grow old ...

3. when nothing works out, shower forgiveness and be ok to sacrifice ... haha, this is the toughest part for you to swallow, right ??? ... but :

a. this is the spirit of Rabin's words that i quoted in my previous post ...

b. this is also expressed succinctly in 馬 太 福 音 18:21 - 22 :

18:21 [hb5] 那 時 彼 得 進 前 來 、 對 耶 穌 說 、 主 阿 、 我 弟 兄 得 罪 我 、 我 當 饒 恕 他 幾 次 呢 。 到 七 次 可 以 麼 。

18:22 [hb5] 耶 穌 說 、 我 對 你 說 、 不 是 到 七 次 、 乃 是 到 七 十 個 七 次 。

lastly, let me tell you a story ...

a neo-nazi asked a guy how can he get rid of all the jews, killing them all ??? ... the response :

no way, can't do it ... see what the jews or the romans did to an enlightened jew, jesus ... christianity flourishes ... see what hitler did in the concentration camp ... we now have israel, a country ...

killing won't work; instead, we should love them, yes, love them ALL !!!

see the paradox but the wisdom in this story ...

and this applies to the other side of the world too ... want to get rid of all the arabians ??? ... love them, love them ALL !!!

at the end of the day, we are just the same people co-habiting (or co-existing) on this planet earth so it won't be that hard to love your fellow neighbours ...

is this just an unrealistic ideal ??? ... am i a dreamer ???

maybe ... hmm, am listening to john lennon's song imagine :) ...

Interesting talks about war when you drag religion into it

The thing is, Hevangel, like many church-going Bush supporting warmongers in the US are siding with Israel too.

Why? There may be a lot of reasons. But the most obvious one is that the Conservative-Christian-Churches have been teaching their members to be religious fanatics and bigots who would blindly support Israel based on their "religious-brain-washing" programs recieved from these hatred-filled-churches.

And please do not use the church-going-warmongers-bible to debate this, as I wouldn't really careless how you interpreted this old book. Many people have used this old book to support their hatred against women, Blacks, Muslims, gays and I really don't really care anymore.

The bottom line. These conservative Christians Church-goers have already have extreme prejudice against the Muslims. It is hard for them to feel any sympathy or empathy for people who are being killed everyday by the action of the Israel government.

Nations of the world should react against the action (bombing of Lebanon) of Israel. They killing should stop now.

And when you talked about war, this is obviously NOT a war between two nations. As Israel bombing of Lebanon is a military action by the Israel government, but the terrorists action were not direct action from the government.

to: Cliff, Re: religious extremism

Hey, I don't know you are living in Toronto. My parents lives in Toronto too. Next time when I go home, how about come out for a drink?

Now, back to the topic. I think your solution is not very feasible. Yes, if the terrorist is within the country, we can let the police deal with them. However, in the case of Israel vs Hezbollah. There is no world police. We all know UN is toothless. The Lebanon police is unless and unwilling to help Isreal, to some extent they even colude with the Hezbollah. Can Isreal dial 911 and let an non-exist police to solve the problem? Maybe my solution putting all the land in Lebanon and Palenstian under Isreal control fits your vision. If Isreal rules the whole area, they can deal with the terrorists using police instead of army.

I know a few Muslim friends at work and in school, and I even lived with one for 4 months. Those Muslim we know are hardly any extremists. They are just normal people like you and me, happen to believe a different religion. However, the extermists don't seem to care living a normal life, instead they are more interesting in carry out whatever Jihad their Allah gave them.

I don't think love alone will solve the problem. If it works, God should be able to make Satan become a saint just by loving him. Mind you that no one has the right to ask others to sacrifice for whatever reason. He can choose to sacrifice himself if he doesn't value his life. Loving them would not get rid all of them, but it would make those on edge feel less anger and dry up sources of the extermists. However for the dedicated few, violence (whether police or army, they all involve the use of violence) is the only solution. There is a very good Catholic teaching. We loves sinners, but we cannot tolerate the act of sin. We can love extermist as a person, but we cannot tolerate their exterme religous thoughts. Love and violence, are just means to archive the end, elimination of extermists. That sounds paradox, but it's true. We love them because we want to change them, which is also a form of elimination of extremist in some sense. BTW, violence sometimes works, just look at the Native Americans. Or a better example, 康熙 literally wiped out 葛爾丹蒙古部落 who oppose him after all methods of 招降 fails.

I really admire your unrealistic ideal. I already passed the age that still believes in idealistic dreams. Wake up and face the brutal fact is not an pleasent experience. Living in reality is less happy than living in dream. Sometimes, I wish I could be a happy dreamer. The question is do we really need to wake up afterall?

to: Frostig, Re: cute

If everyone has his own definition of pretty, ugly and cute, then those words are meaningless. When we say someone is pretty, ugly or cute, is the same as we say someone is *(&@, &^@_ or &^!(.

??

so how abt 榴槤?

does it taste good?

:P

if there's a test to justify beauty/ugly. So it will be the same for taste :)

Sample letters from Amnesty International to Israeli Prime Minis

Urge Israeli Prime Minister, Ehud Olmert to take urgent steps to put an immediate end to deliberate attacks by Israeli forces against civilian and civilian property and infrastructure in Lebanon

Please send appeals to:

Ehud Olmert
Prime Minister and Minister for Social Welfare and Science and Technology Office of the Prime Minister
3 Kaplan Street
P O Box 187
Kiryat Ben-Gurion
Jerusalem 91919
Israel

Fax: +972 2 566 4838 +972 2 670 5475

E-mail: [email protected]
[email protected]
[email protected]

Dear Prime Minister,

I am writing to express my deepest concern about the killing of more than 300 civilian Lebanese, including dozens of children, by Israeli air strikes in Lebanon in the week since 12 July. Hundreds of other civilians have been injured during those attacks as well.

During their air strikes, the Israeli forces have also damaged civilian infrastructure throughout Lebanon. They have deliberately targeted and destroyed dozens of bridges, roads, powers stations, the international airport and ports, grain silos and other facilities. Hundreds of thousands of civilians have been forced to flee their homes, notably in South Lebanon and in the suburbs of the capital, Beirut. Such attacks are a blatant breach of international humanitarian law and some amount to war crimes.

Amnesty International condemns unreservedly attacks by Hizbullah against Israeli civilians and continues to campaign against such attacks, including the launching of “katyusha” rockets into Israel. The organization is campaigning to put pressure on Hizbullah to immediately end such attacks, which have killed 15 Israeli civilians since 12 Julyl. Since the capture by Hizbullah of two Israeli soldiers, on 12 July, Amnesty International has been calling for them not to be harmed and to be allowed immediate access to the International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC).

I urge you to take urgent steps to put an immediate end to deliberate attacks by Israeli forces against civilian and civilian property and infrastructure in Lebanon. These attacks constitute collective punishment. I call on you to end the use of excessive and disproportionate force, and to ensure that Israeli forces respect the principle of proportionality when targeting any military objective or civilian objective that may be used for military purposes.

Yours sincerely,

Sample letter from Amnesty International to Secretary General of

Urge The Secretary General of Hizbullah, Sheikh Hassan Nasrallah to ensure that Hizbullah’s armed wing put an immediate end to the targeting of Israeli civilians, notably the launch of rockets into Israeli towns and villages and that Hizbullah fighters do not initiate armed attacks from residential civilian areas and avoid locating military objectives within civilian areas.

Please send appeals to:

Sheikh Hassan Nasrallah
Secretary General Hizbullah
POB 13585, Beirut
Lebanon
+961 1 270 819
[email protected]

E-mail: [email protected]

Dear Sir,

I am writing to express my concern about the killing of civilians in both Lebanon and Israel. In the week since 12 July, more than 300 Lebanese civilians, including dozens of children have been killed by the Israeli air strikes against Lebanon and hundreds more have been injured. Amnesty International condemns unreservedly the massive attacks carried out by the Israeli military against civilians and civilian infrastructure throughout Lebanon, and is calling on Israel to immediately cease such attacks and to respect international humanitarian law.

We are also concerned about Hizbullah attacks against Israeli civilians, some 15 of whom have been killed by rockets launched by Hizbullah. Such attacks have also caused substantial damage to homes and other civilian property.

I urge you to ensure that Hizbullah’s armed wing put an immediate end to the targeting of Israeli civilians, notably the launch of rockets into Israeli towns and villages and that Hizbullah fighters do not initiate armed attacks from residential civilian areas and avoid locating military objectives within civilian areas. I also call on you not to harm the two Israeli soldiers whom Hizbullah captured and to grant them access to the International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC).

Sincerely,

Sample letter from Amnesty International to Lebanese Prime Minis

Urge Lebanese Prime Minister, Fouad Siniora to take measures to ensure that Hizbullah immediately ends its targeting of Israeli civilians, notably its firing of Katyusha rockets and other projectiles into Israeli towns and villages, and that Hizbullah fighters do not initiate armed attacks from residential civilian areas and avoid locating military objectives within civilian areas. Call on him to ensure that Hizbullah treats the two captured Israeli soldiers humanely and allows them immediate access to the International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC).

Please send appeals to:

Fouad Siniora
Prime Minister Office of the Prime Minister
Grand Sérail
Rue des Arts et Métiersil
Sanayeh, Beirut
Lebanon

Fax: +961 1 785 014 +961 1 869 630 +961 1 746 085

E-mail: [email protected]

Dear Prime Minister,
I am writing to express my concern about the killing of civilians both in Lebanon and Israel. Since 12 July, some 300 Lebanese civilians, including dozens of children have been killed by Israeli air strikes against Lebanon and hundreds more have been injured. Amnesty International condemns unreservedly the massive attacks carried out by the Israeli army against civilians and civilian infrastructure throughout Lebanon, and is calling on Israel to immediately cease such attacks and to respect international humanitarian law.
We are also concerned about Hizbullah attacks against Israeli civilians, some 15 of whom have been killed by rocket launched by Hizbullah. Such attacks have also caused substantial damage to homes and other civilian properties.
I urge you to take measures to ensure that Hizbullah immediately ends its targeting of Israeli civilians, notably its firing of Katyusha rockets and other projectiles into Israeli towns and villages, and that Hizbullah fighters do not initiate armed attacks from residential civilian areas and avoid locating military objectives within civilian areas. I also call on you to ensure that Hizbullah treats the two captured Israeli soldiers humanely and allow them immediate access to the International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC).

Sincerely,

本周評論:為何教會不譴責以色列暴力濫殺 ?

2006/8/4

胡志偉牧師

  近期,以色列與黎巴嫩真主黨之間的軍事衝突不斷升級,以色列強硬的「以牙還牙」手段,不理會各國勸諭繼續轟炸,其中誤炸,造成不少平民傷亡,包括中國派往聯合國執行任務的杜照宇,也不幸遇難。

  倘若我們肯定「全球倫理價值」,其中人的生存權為首要,我們就要堅決地反對任何暴力對人的生命踐踏與殺戮。聯合國安理會基於美國偏幫以色列,拒絕向以色列作出譴責,已使聯合國維持全球和平的使命蕩然無存,而美國本身的偽善與不義更赤裸裸地向全世界暴露。所謂高舉「人權與民主」的美國,很多時只把「人權」、「民主」、「宗教自由」作為外交政治手段;基督徒或教會若不認清真相,照搬北美福音派的政治立場,只會使我們的信仰抬不起頭,把「信仰效忠」淪為「效忠美國」,這是筆者不認同的。

  黎巴嫩真主黨的行為,偷襲別人,又擄走以色列士兵,不值得同情;然而以色列屠殺無辜平民的野蠻行徑,也同樣不能得著肯定。無論以色列與黎巴嫩真主黨誰是誰非,任何殘害生命的暴力行為,均需受到全球有良知人士的嚴正譴責。

  自美國在全球推行反恐戰爭,以愛國主義情緒掩蓋理性思考,主張以暴易暴。美國向伊拉克動武,正是典型「不義之戰」;所謂「先發制人式」的反恐戰爭,正是現今以色列師承美國霸權主義,只要猜疑對方有所威脅,就要先下手為強,誓要把對方消滅,結果是更多的暴力濫殺。

  以色列在黎巴嫩南部迦拿的空襲,造成28人死亡,當中有16名兒童。按照基督教信仰傳統,迦拿是耶穌公開施行神蹟的首個場所,耶穌把水變為酒,使當地婚宴主家倍增歡樂。世事無常,諷刺的是今天的迦拿成為悲哀與怨恨的戰場 !

  華人教會,深受時代論終末論影響,信仰與政治皆認同以色列人,更有部分認為以色列人是上帝的選民,而以色列的命定是與普世教會復興息息相關的;因此教會只能為以色列求平安,凡以色列作的,皆要支持,不能反對。在此偏差的神學前設下,所有以色列的軍事行動美化為「自衛式」,是為勢所逼的;打擊敵人是不能手軟的,一切事件發生皆朝向聖經對終末的預言。

  筆者不能認同此種論述,上帝從不偏待任何族裔,所有人皆要為其所行的不義,面對終極的審判。列國面對審判,也是基於公義的原則;當任何國家公然違反人權,不肯透過談判協商,堅決要用武力解決問題,造成平民傷亡,這種違反國際道義的惡行,該受全球各國人士的譴責,而教會更要本著真理予以譴責。假若我們對此等暴行沉默不語,只會助長暴力發展,看誰的武力強,誰就可以出手打人,即或打錯別人,要怪責的不是打人者,反是受其連累的第三者。為何你不是生下來就是美國人或以色列人,倒是黎巴嫩人、伊拉克人或阿富汗人 ? 因此,你命定活該如此,某些教會領袖豈不是說 :「凡以色列的對頭人,不也是沒有好的結果 ? 」聖經沒有偏幫猶太人,乃是美國教會偏袒以色列,傾斜的外交造成今天的以色列;耶穌向動武者說:「收刀入鞘吧!凡動刀的,必死於刀下。」(太廿六52)任何暴力濫殺,否定生命,普世教會皆要發出譴責 !