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自討沒趣 - 記與孫明揚及眾官面談

還記得當老師問我有冇興趣直接問孫明揚問題時,實在興奮,立即答到:「當然有興趣!」,一大堆問題亦瞬間湧上心頭。但會面過後,才知道那是自討沒趣。

其實花了很長的時間研究,閱讀多年來的檔案,還不太清楚應問些什麼。就連原址保留皇后碼頭的最大困難在那裡都攪不清楚,一時是P2,當有人提出解決方法後,問題又去了調車隧道那裡...或者係本人不才,未能了解檔案中的底蘊,只知什麼都是「有問題」,卻始終無法理解有什麼問題。可是就連專業的建築師學會都說在他們與政府的三次會面當中,都只流於表面的資料交流,重來沒有認真研究的空間。如此看來,政府根本沒有對話的誠意。

專業的建築師學會的代表表示基於信任,他們本打算在與政府的會議未有結果之前,不向外公布會議內容。現在差不多有結果才對外交流一下。另一方面,政府又是怎樣看待這份互信?大概只是一種利用罷了。那作為普通市民,我們又可以信邊個??...這不止是憤怒,更是悲哀。

當有人問到為什麼當社會正面對很大的分歧時,填海工程一定不能停一下,是否意味著金錢和合約比碼頭更重要時,學生竟被要求說出「集體回憶」的定義,怎樣的「集體回憶」值多少錢,為什麼皇后碼頭不是古蹟...其實他們都攪錯了,我們從來都沒有提起過什麼「集體回憶」甚至「保育」,我們在說「民意」。可是,他們知道什麼是民意嗎?其實政府與專業團體都應該告訴市民那些東西有什麼價值,再由市民決定什麼應該留,什麼可以拆。但市民現在連一件東西有什麼價值都不知道,甚至被反問回來。即使市民說這東西有價值,我們亦沒有權要求為該東西評級,可笑他們還問為什麼皇后碼頭不是古蹟。市民根本重來沒有機會選擇過。

其實整個會議都有一種有佢講冇你講的感覺,你問一條問題,他們就一輪咀不停地遊花園,使你冇機會回應或追問。這個過程只是知會,不是諮詢。It’s consultation, not collaboration. 孫局長甚至說他很欣賞這種「有秩序的交流」,呼籲我們與同學分享是次經驗,告訴他們出面那些是「無政府狀態」的論壇,他不能在那些地方說話。

眾所周知,皇后碼頭下面會有一條長達500米的機鐵調車隧道,而那一條長長的掉車隧道亦會是將來的港島北線。政府說皇后碼頭一定要拆因為調車隧道一定要起。當再被問到可以轉幾多彎及到港島北線幾時起時,政府亦承認未必一定會起港島北線。不過他們要做「鐵路路線保護」,即「霸地」,即所有事情都要照原定計劃,不能改變。亦即是說用唔用都好,霸左先算。那皇后碼頭就要被拆了。

身為房屋及規劃地政局局長的孫明揚其後更話:「我唔知乜野中軸線...大會堂起左有幾耐?有得你睇啦...香港好多野囉,點輪到呢到?...世界D人黎睇乜野?會唔會一定就去皇后碼頭?」雖然大家都知道遊客及時間都不足以決定一個地方的價值,但當時都冇人懂得反應。

會議的最後,孫局長被問到補地價佔香港政府的總收入的百分比,因香港的地稅很低,是否因為補地價這個系統做就了我們今天的城市面貌?孫局長當然小心奕奕,此地無銀地說道:「冇緊要既,睇邊年啦...」

其實每年的補地價連及賣地等收入,已佔了政府收入的很大部份,而地鐵及九鐵每年都補幾百億地價的。那麼,是誰主宰著香港的發展?其實補地價這模式對市民是有得益的,因為地稅很低。而當那些大地產財團賺大錢時,樓價股票便會升,市民便高興了。但若要維持著那些大地產財團有大錢可賺,我們便不得不拆 起 拆 起...亦會使更多的人窮一生也不能擁有自己的樓。因此,下一次當你因樓價股票升而高興時,請停下來想一想,你真的賺了嗎?賺了什麼?不停升,不停升,之後呢?真的可以不停?你要一個怎樣的家?

影像串流: 
影像串流: 

回應

補地價佔政府八成收入是哪裏的資料?

我還以為補地價是買地時一次過給的。

Mr Sun's soft spot?

It seems the essence of the problem lies in the last paragraph. If you get the info, let's build a stronger case upon it.
By identifying the essence, it should enable us to focus our attention and concentrate our efforts effectively.
Thank you for your effort.

交陀地?

係咪講緊地租?
差佬保護費等等?

可否給多一點背景資料?

gutfei,想問一下孫明揚(及眾高官)是在甚麼場合說話的?是你們老師安排了一次面談,讓你們同學跟孫明揚和眾高官面對面討論皇后碼頭的問題嗎?

有關皇后碼頭為甚麼一定要讓路的問題,昨日在民間團體主辦的答問大會上聽完政府高官的解釋,更加讓人疑惑為甚麼非拆不可。之前政府堅稱因為天星和皇后碼頭阻著起公路(P2路),昨日態度上已承認P2路位置可以稍作改動,政府只需要刊憲提出會有改動就成了。換句話說,技術上不存在問題。

政府近日提出的新的問題,包括機鐵預見未來乘客量可能會增加至機鐵要增加車卡,所以要在填海區預留地方,讓機鐵可以建造新的掉頭站。但機鐵乘客量多少大家有眼睇,何時何日機鐵的使用量會飽和根本很成疑問,何況即使飽和也不等如一定要增加機鐵本身的使用,而可以用其他運輸工具,所以政府這個理由根本沒有一點說服力。政府大概有見及此,昨日又說機鐵其實包括埋東涌線的...總之日日有新料。

不過,政府高官昨日戰戰競競的承認,現時已簽署了的涉及機鐵合約的工程只去到皇后碼頭以西的位置,是未到皇后碼頭的。換句話說,政府即使不拆皇后碼頭,也不會因為機鐵合約工程的問題而要對任何人作出賠償。

政府近日提出的另一個新問題是地鐵要起新的北港島線!嘩,作為一名住在港島的普通市民,我真係覺得這個政府好離譜。無端端又話起新的北港島線,我們全部給蒙在鼓裡,都不知道發生甚麼事。我是無車階級,好多時都要乘地鐵,車費實在好貴,每次過海或坐多兩個站都好肉痛。我十分不明白為甚麼我們要將地上路面全部讓給私家車,而我們要被迫乘坐昂貴的地鐵!

政府有沒有問過我們是否要新的北港島線?沒有。

政府有沒有問過我們是否會選擇地鐵以外的其他解決交通擠塞問題的方法呢?沒有。

但現在政府告訴我們因為要起新的北港島線,所以要拆皇后!不是吧!

總之,我完全不能理解政府堅持要拆皇后碼頭的原因是甚麼。唯一的理由是政府是依在它習慣的邏輯辦事:賣地是政府主要的收入。填海是政府最容易獲得新土地(尤其是市區土地)的方法。天星皇后妨礙填海,所以一定要拆。市民要保留更多公眾空間,這思維妨礙政府賣地,一定要根除。所以天星皇后一定要拆!

agree with you gutfei

The government had held three meetings with four professional bodies (Association of Engineering Professionals in Society Ltd. (AES); Conservancy Association (CA); Hong Kong Institute of Architects (HKIA); and Hong Kong Institution of Engineers (HKIE)) to discuss the methods for preserving the Queen's Pier. A report of proposals has been released by The Housing, Planning and Lands Bureau and the Civil Engineering and Development Department (CEDD). Option D seems to be the most possible one pointed by the government but is not truly a compromise by the groups concerned, some of the professionals are still struggling and working hard on the feasibility of some possible alternatives. Some private meetings were then held and groups were invited in the name of consultation. We went to the private meeting as a learning experience that we had the opportunity to know what happened inside. The other groups all boycotted this kind of small group private meeting and thus the better public form of consultation in happy valley was held last night.

The pseudo private meeting turned out to be an explanation session held by the government to explain their difficulties rather than a closer study to the issues behind. And it seems to me that the government's attitude is quite firm because in stead of answering some technical questions with details asked by students, officials asked us to refer to the PowerPoint/website and continued to explain their difficulties - mainly cost and time (if delayed, compensation to developers is huge) I do understand that the development was planned in the early 90s so contracts are signed and there are limitations if any thing will change in the development plan but should money the most important aspect to consider a development?

I just think if there is any better alternative that could use money to resolve, shall we consider implement it if it is within a limited cost? Shall we consider whether citizens are willing to pay the cost in monetary term for values they consider significant? Have we ever collaborated with the public in decision making concerning cost (are they not money of HK people)? Shall we include values that cannot be calculated in monetary terms into our discussion and try to develop a language to communicate and a consensus between the two? I just wonder what the point for consultation then is. What does consultation mean?

If the department needs consultation concerning issues on historical significant, cultural and spatial relations, why are elements within this area are not included in their mindset? Nothing within the philosophies and theories within this field was discussed because they have little sense in this language and are reluctant to put these issues in an equal grounding with cost and time. 孫明揚 had pointed out some of his views during the meeting: 1) the Pier and the city hall complex are only built in the 50s and he didn't think they are of any important comparing to many other heritages in Hong Kong. 2) Tourist would not go to visit Queen's Pier; Hong Kong has many other attractions. Someone had mentioned elements such as people, events, collective memories, value, and hermeneutics during the meeting, but they were not discussed and passed back for students to think. (But isn’t it responsibility of the government to let people understand all these?) Therefore we better talked within their language.

There are things within the development that doubts me. As far as I know, the underground of the Pier will be reserved to the building of an Overturn Tunnel (AR EOT) and the Protection Preparation for the Northern Island line (NIL), so it is not very possible to relocate the Pier in situ. Actually the NIL is just a rough alignment between the government and the MTRC, it is not yet in contract base and not yet passed through general consultation at this stage, that means the Pier is to be sacrificed to something not yet thoroughly consulted and firmly decided. However, under the contract of the Phase III development, even the potential NIL will likely to be built in 2016 or even will not be built, the underground of the Pier have to be reserved thus removal of the Pier is necessary. (How ridiculous!)

Personally, I think the Airport Railway Extended Overturn Tunnel and the Northern Island line are quite unnecessary. The existing Tung Chun line and the Island line are more than enough for Central and Wai Chai area, comparing to some major cities in Europe and elsewhere. A lot of places in the area are within walkable distance. Predictably, in 2016, the NIL may relieve some interchange movements in the existing Island line, but I don’t think that is very essential (Who would like to sacrifice a heritage with historical significant to just a less than 3 minutes act for an interchange movement?). I wonder if we think the 3 more (unnecessary) stations to be built: Tamar Station (which is just next to Admiralty station), Exhibition Station (which is just close to Wan Chai station), Victoria Park Station (which is close to CWB and Tin Hau station) are for the convenience of the citizens as explained in the document, then we may be wrong. The rationale behind may not be serving convenience but serving a potential business for the MTRC’s property development on top of the stations and underground shopping mall.

I feel a bit disappointed how the whole development plan has belittled and undermined our historical and natural heritage. It's so sad to see how the official rhetoric has distorted our perceptions of looking at the issue. It seems that we are discoursed to believe that it is normal and justifiable to make way for infrastructure and to sacrifice something for a 'better future' with convenience, civilized prestige, and economic benefits (to whom?). There are certainly things which cannot be calculated in monetary value such as memory, space, community, people and democracy. What I have learned from the meeting is that mistakes were made and things were hard to be changed at this stage but in future planning, there are important issues to consider. 1) The consultation process has to be more transparent and if possible collaboration rather than consultation. 2) Evaluation of public opinions should be researched, documented and published. 3) Civic education is important and the government has the responsibility to equip the public with knowledge to understand planning and development not just in a superficial way. 4) A better election system should be developed.

It seems that many people in Hong Kong have little sense in perceiving space and details, and it is dangerous if younger generations are not encouraged to feel the relation of space within our city. I think the development is problematic. The whole space has been distorted and historical significance destroyed. Star Ferry, Queen's Pier, Noon Day Gun and the Floating Tin Hau Temple are something integral to our daily experience and it is important to understand how our interactions with all these things have evolved into our Hong Kong today. I deem if they are relocated to somewhere else or in museums just for the sake of cultural tourism, their meaning will be lost, like corpus without spirit.

The whole development gives me an image of a little boy who is forced by his parents to give up an old living dog for a new high tech electronic robot dog. I am not a professional but as a common citizen, I feel very sad. Every time I passed by the old Star Ferry site, I feel a strong sense of loss and emptiness. It is heart breaking and it hurts. I lived in the soho area when I was young and I love going to the Star Ferry's Pier and the Queen's Pier and found the area a romantic place to spend an afternoon, it's not just a site, but an experience of that space in relation to an individual in a city. Perhaps many practices in HK do not encourage people to think of their social existence in relation to the city, I just feel so suffocated to imagine a future with a lot of similar building complex with the same restaurants, same entertainments, same brand chains inside but without human touch and without sense of community. Something valuable is disappearing, but they are part of us, part of how we feel our place and part of our memory, part of our spiritual journey of growing up.

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